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Interview with Sang H. Lee and Young Kim Lee

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Sang H. Lee was born in Taegu, South Korea, the first of six children. His father was a college teacher in Seoul during most of Sang's childhood. Sang finished college in Korea and then came to the United States for graduate study in engineering in 1969. He studied at Washington State University for two years and later at Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Boston from 1971 to 1976. After completing his studies he accepted a position at Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Company (3M) in St. Paul, where he is presently a supervisor of research and development of engineering materials. Young Kim Lee was also born in Taegu, the third of four children. She graduated from Yonsei University and then came to the United States in 1973 to study to be a medical technician in Philadelphia. She met Sang at a Korean church in Philadelphia and moved to Boston after their marriage. The Lees are active members of the Korean Presbyterian Church in Minnesota. SUBJECTS DISCUSSED: The Lees discuss the favorable social climate for Asians in Minnesota, the history of the Korean church and community in the state, and the problems of bringing up their children with an appreciation of their Korean roots. They also mention the Korean Association and the Minnesota chapter of the Korean Scientists and Engineers Association. Kim Young talks about the changing roles of men and women in the Korean immigrant community. COMMENTS ON INTERVIEW: The Lees represent the many professionals among recent Korean immigrants to Minnesota, and the concerns of this group to develop a well-organized, active ethnic community in the Twin Cities.

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Sang H. Lee Young Kim Lee Narrators Sarah Mason Interviewer December 19, 1979 The Lee Home Stillwater, Minnesota

Sarah Mason Sang Lee Young Kim Lee

- SM - SL - YKL

A Lee Child: Hey Daddy, something wrong. SL: Where? A Lee Child: Over here. SL: Oh, that’s okay. I’ll take of it. SM: I’m talking to Sang Lee and Kim Lee in Stillwater, Minnesota on December 19, 1979. This is an interview conducted under the auspices of the Minnesota Historical Society and the interviewer is Sarah Mason. Maybe we could begin by your backgrounds in Korea. Do you want to start, Sang? SL: Yes. Yes. YKL: Koreans background or . . .? SL: Background. What, family background or . . .? SM: Your family background and your education and, you know, general. YKL: Family background . . . SL: I am the first one of six brothers in the family, I mean, brothers and sisters. And I finished college there and came over to the United States in . . . oh, about ten years ago. SM: Oh. 1

SL: First I went . . . I came to Washington State [University]. SM: In 1969? SL: 1969, yes. SM: Oh, to Washington state. SL: Yes. I stayed there for about two years. SM: Were you working there? SL: I went to school. SM: Oh, went to school. SL: Yes, oh, I went to school. SM: To the University of Washington? SL: Washington State University. SM: Washington State University. SL: Yes. And then I went to Boston and stayed there for about five years. SM: I see. How long were you at Washington State? SL: Two years. SM: Two years. SL: Yes. SM: So then in 1971 you went to Boston? SL: 1971, yes, I went to Boston. And I went to school there again. SM: I see. SL: I’m sort of a professional student. [Chuckles] [Laughter] SM: Which university was it? 2

SL: MIT. SM: Oh, at MIT. SL: Yes. SM: You were studying . . .? SL: Engineering. SM: Engineering. SL: Yes. And then I came to Minnesota about three years ago. SM: Where were you from in Korea? SL: I am mostly from Seoul. SM: From Seoul. SL: I have lived most of my life in Seoul. SM: I see. SL: I was born in the Southern part of Korea. SM: In Southern Korea? SL: Yes. SM: Oh, yes. What kind of work did your father do? SL: My brother, my father? SM: Your father. SL: He . . . he is teaching. I mean, he was teaching at a college. SM: I see. Your father was a college teacher? SL: Yes. A Lee Child: Are you . . . are you here? 3

SL: Yes, I’m still here. SM: Maybe we’ll just get a little background and we’ll switch back to MIT. [Chuckles] SL: Yes. Yes, okay. A Lee Child: I’m sure you are [unclear]. YKL: [To her child] No, [unclear]. [Chuckles] SM: Do you want to talk about your background Kim? YKL: My background? [Chuckles] I grew up third . . . third kids. I have four brothers and sisters, two girls and two boys. SL: Yes. Four children. YKL: Yes, four children. Yes. SM: Was that in Seoul? YKL: I lived in the same city that . . . have you ever heard of [unclear]? SM: Oh, yes. SL: Yes, [unclear]. YKL: Yes. SM: That’s the same city you were from? SL: Yes. SM: Oh. SL: Yes, I lived there part of my life. SM: Yes. Okay. Oh, I see. Is that North Korea? SL: It’s South. SM: Oh, South. That’s South, too. SL: Southern part, yes. 4

YKL: South, yes. I finished college there and I came over here in 1973. SM: I see. YKL: Yes. And lived in Philadelphia and I studied there in medical technology. SM: I see. YKL: Yes. I met him there in Philadelphia Korean Church. SM: Oh. YKL: And we got married and I have to move to Boston. [Chuckles] SM: I see. YKL: So I lived with him . . . two years, four years? SL: Yes. YKL: Two. SL: Two. YKL: Two years. SM: Two years in Boston. SL: Yes. YKL: Yes. Then came over here to Minnesota. SM: Then came to Minnesota. YKL: Two and a half . . . that was three years. SL: Yes. SM: How long have you been in Minnesota? SL: Three years. SM: Three years. YKL: Yes. 5

SL: Just over three years. SM: So you came in 1976? SL: 1976, yes. SM: Which college was that that you went to in Korea? YKL: The Yonsei. SM: Oh, Yonsei. YKL: [Unclear] Mr. Han. SL: Yes, Mr. Han went there. SM: Yes. YKL: He went to there. SM: Yes, I’ve met quite a few people. Well, not a lot but several of them went to [unclear]. I see. Well, I guess the next question is why you came to Minnesota. [Chuckles] SL: Oh. Well . . . SM: Was it the job? SL: Yes, it was the job. I had only about . . . YKL: No, you wanted to study best at . . . SM: Oh. SL: Minnesota. YKL: Here, not to . . . SM: Oh, to Minnesota. SL: Yes. YKL: Oh, the job. Right. SL: Yes, it was the job. Yes. 6

SM: Yes. YKL: Yes. I thought they said United States of America. [Chuckles] SM: Oh. And that was mainly to study for both of you. SL: Yes. YKL: Yes. SM: Yes. Well, did you hear about the job at MIT and then you came here? Or did you come here and look for a job? SL: Oh yes, I heard about the job at MIT. SM: Oh, I see. Yes. SL: Yes [unclear]. SM: I see. Well, were there any other reasons that you thought Minnesota might be a good place to raise your family or . . .? SL: Mmmm. At that time I really didn’t know much about Minnesota. SM: [Chuckles] You just took a chance. SL: The only thing was the job, yes. SM: Well, what about . . . what do you think now? [Chuckles] SL: Oh, I think it’s a pretty good place to live in except the cold weather. [Chuckles] SM: Except the cold weather. YKL: Yes. SL: Its environment is fine, and it’s a good place to live. SM: You mean the social environment? SL: Yes, social environment. SM: Yes. Yes. Well, if you’ve been on the East Coast and West Coast, maybe you could make a comparison of . . .? 7

SL: Comparison, yes. SM: How it might differ from them. SL: Yes. Minnesota is a good place to live in. It’s environmentally pretty good. But still I kind of miss Boston, because the city is pretty much the same, very similar to Seoul. SM: Oh, is it? SL: It’s sort of hustling and bustling. SM: Oh. Oh, yes. SL: And it has the, you know, minor details of almost everything. You just don’t want to live in . . . in the [unclear] where it’s so crowded. [Chuckles] SM: Right. SL: Yes. SM: But it’s maybe a little more . . . SL: More crowded and more . . . the air and things like that may be bad. More theft. SM: Oh, yes. Higher crime. SL: Of course, you know, there’s crime and some things like that. SM: But it’s kind of exciting, too? SL: Yes, it’s kind of exciting and more . . . SM: More than the Twin Cities. [Chuckles] SL: Seems like you have more chances of something. And it’s bigger. SM: Yes. More variety? SL: More variety. SM: Yes. Well, what about the Korean community itself? Was there a large Korean community in Boston? SL: Yes, in Boston there were quite a bit. 8

SM: Oh. SL: And I guess about . . . about how many, do you think? YKL: Boston. SL: Yes, right now it may be much bigger now. SM: Oh. SL: I guess about five, six thousand people. SM: Oh. Yes. Well, that isn’t too much bigger than here then, because this is about three or four. SL: Oh . . . SM: Well, it’s considerably bigger, but . . . SL: Yes, it’s . . . yes, just a little bit, not like New York or Los Angeles. SM: Yes. But Chicago has so many Koreans. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: I see. Well, were you active in community there, the Korean community? SL: Because I was going to school, most of my life there was [unclear]. SM: You didn’t have too much time, I suppose. SL: You know, but I was more active in the student activities. SM: Yes. Was there a Korean student organization? SL: Yes. SM: Oh. SL: I guess in most schools they have one. SM: Yes. Well, what I’m trying to find out is whether this Korean community here is somewhat unique or whether the Midwestern environment has had some influence. SL: Mmmm. 9

SM: Some people . . . several people here have mentioned that. That they thought this was a kind of a unique community in that there weren’t the same conflicts as in a larger, like L.A. SL: Yes. SM: But I’m just trying to get a reaction from as many as possible to see if you agree with that opinion. SL: Well, I don’t know what to think. SM: [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] SM: Do you think it’s fairly similar to other Korean communities? Or maybe just being smaller makes it somewhat different, too. YKL: [Unclear] Korean people [unclear] very same, you know. SM: Yes. SL: Yes. YKL: [Unclear]. SL: Yes. But I think in a sense . . . YKL: We don’t know about . . . we don’t have any chance to meet [unclear] immigration people. We [unclear] but I don’t know about that. SL: What she means is met, you know, other Koreans who have . . . SM: Are immigrants. SL: Who have recently . . . sort of immigrants. YKL: [Unclear]. SM: Oh, yes. Yes. YKL: We usually met and talked about . . . they were [unclear] students and [unclear]. SM: Oh, yes. And more were professionals and . . . 10

YKL: [Unclear]. You know. The same. SL: Yes. SM: Well, I guess that’s what one person said, that because this is so heavily professional . . . SL: Yes. YKL: Yes. SM: That might make some difference, I suppose. SL: Yes. I guess [unclear] Minnesota initially most of the Koreans here might have been kind of professional, you know, they’re finished studying or . . . SM: Yes. SL: Or did some training in some areas or, you know, went to school here and then got settled here. But quite recently, I think, quite a few people . . . either by the people living here or, you know, somehow [unclear]. SM: Yes, some relatives. SL: So some relatives. And so ultimately I think it’s going to become kind of similar. SM: Yes. SL: The only reason . . . I see some differences between . . . of course, there’s a big difference between the community of say Los Angeles or Chicago. SM: Yes, because they’re so gigantic. Yes. SL: Quite a bit of factions and, you know, sometimes conflicts and things like that. SM: Yes. SL: But as far as I can see it’s . . . it’s pretty . . . pretty good here. SM: You think this might grow quite a bit larger or . . .? SL: Oh, yes, it looks like so. SM: And it seems to be recently . . .

11

SL: Yes, it’s getting bigger, you know, ever increasingly. You know, just getting bigger and bigger. SM: But I suppose Los Angeles is increasing at the same time. [Chuckles] SL: [Laughing] Oh, yes. I suppose. That’s the thing. SM: Well, that’s a much older community, too, I suppose. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: But one thing that complicates the picture when you’re talking about professional and blue collar . . . SL: Yes. SM: Is that apparently – and I’m sure you’re aware of this – but apparently, many who have come who are maybe middle class in Korea, but they can’t get work in their trade and field here, so they become blue collar here. SL: Yes. SM: They take factory work. SL: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. SM: Yes, but they weren’t originally blue collar. SL: Sure. Oh, they were not, I mean. SM: Right. But then some were originally blue collar and came over and are still blue collar? SL: Yes. Yes. Some were, as far as I know, some were. SM: Yes. SL: But I . . . I really don’t think there is any kind of, you know, like class differences, you might say. I don’t think . . . I don’t see it that way. SM: Yes. SL: More like, you know, the people in Korea who went to liberal arts school say, for example. SM: Yes. 12

SL: A music student who has been going to music school. They just . . . there’s just no jobs in something like that here. SM: Right. SL: So they end up, you know, doing some work which is not in their profession. SM: Ah, yes. SL: But that doesn’t mean, you know, like . . . SM: That they don’t come from a different class. SL: Right. That’s right. SM: Oh, so pretty much it is middle and some upper class? SL: Yes, middle and upper middle class, I guess. Probably . . . yes. Most of the people here are, as far as I can see, if they go back there, their [unclear]. SM: Yes. SL: And done pretty good, you know, [unclear]. SM: Yes. So it isn’t really a large mixture of class except maybe with the exception of the servicemen’s wives [unclear] somewhat different class. SL: Yes, there may be some. Yes, some. Yes. SM: Maybe not all of them. SL: Not all of them. Yes. SM: Well, do you have social interaction and acceptance and so on with your colleagues at work? SL: Yes. SM: Equally as much as you when you take part with Koreans? SL: Yes. I personally do it about say sixty percent with Koreans and forty percent people from work. SM: I see. 13

SL: Kim, on the other hand, doesn’t have as much interaction with say for example the wives of the, you know, colleagues at work, something like that. SM: Oh, yes. SL: So she doesn’t have that much interaction but she may have some in neighborhood. SM: Yes. Do you feel pretty at home in the neighborhood? Are they friendly and so on? YKL: Yes. SM: Yes. YKL: Yes, especially Minnesota people. SM: You think especially? SL: That’s . . . yes, that’s true. SM: Oh. YKL: Yes. SM: Hmmm. More than in Philadelphia or . . .? SL: Or in Boston, yes. YKL: Yes. Or in Boston. SM: That’s what everyone has said. More than Boston. SL: Yes. YKL: Yes. SM: Well, I guess the East is known for it’s reserved . . . [Chuckles] SL: Oh. [Chuckles] SM: Well, I’m trying to look at all the factors in the Midwest that influence the community, too. Influence the Korean community and every part of the community. SL: Yes. SM: One being the weather, of course. [Chuckles] 14

SL: [Chuckles] SM: And because I think the very harsh climate keeps the population pretty low here. SL: Yes. SM: There will never be . . . Minnesota will never be crowded. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] SM: Because a lot of people can’t stand the weather, you know. But at the same time, since it is less crowded, that makes a little different social climate, too. There isn’t as much competition for jobs. There is plenty, but . . . SL: Yes. SM: We do have a slightly better employment rate. SL: Yes. SM: Well, it’s more white collar [unclear] I guess. SL: Yes. SM: Well, somebody told me though that Korea has a somewhat similar climate. Is that true? [Chuckles] SL: [Laughter] YKL: [Laughter] Four seasons. SL: Yes, it’s similar . . . yes, the four seasons. SM: Four seasons, okay. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] Yes. YKL: We have snow [unclear] but not . . . SL: But the winter is not as severe as this. SM: Yes. Maybe in North Korea is it? SL: In North Korea it may be, yes. 15

SM: Yes. SL: The upper Northern part may be very similar to this one, yes. SM: That’s interesting. Because I imagine some of the Indochinese refugees, for example, coming from Saigon, this weather must be a real shock. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] SM: You know, to come from a tropical kind of climate to this would be really terrible. [Chuckles] SL: Yes. SM: But in Seoul it’s considerably warmer then? SL: It’s . . . yes, I guess it’s warmer. [Pause] [Sound of pages turning] SM: Oh. Well, maybe we could go on to the church. That might be interesting. Are you pretty active in the church [unclear]? SL: Yes. YKL: He is a deacon. SM: Oh, he’s a deacon. SL: Oh . . . YKL: [Chuckles] SM: That’s pretty active. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] SM: This isn’t a very old church, is it? SL: No. It’s . . . actually, it’s about a year, year and a half. SM: Oh. And it broke off from the church . . . [unclear] 16

SL: From the . . . yes. Another, you know, church, which is not existing now. SM: Yes. Were you here when that split occurred? SL: Yes, for a short time. SM: So you were attending that church? SL: Yes, I was attending. SM: Oh. Oh, then maybe you can tell me a little about that church, too, even though it doesn’t exist anymore. SL: Yes. SM: Was that different in some way from the Presbyterian church or . . .? SL: Ah . . . yes. Well, I guess that was sort of a . . . SM: [Unclear] Baptist. SL: No, the name of the church was not Baptist, but it was a sort of a fellowship type church. Not in, you know, not in principle. In principle, it’s Christianity, but, you know, all . . . that didn’t have any factions. SM: It didn’t have any factions? SL: I mean . . . SM: Or you mean denominations? SL: Yes, no denominations, that’s what I mean. SM: Oh, yes. Yes. SL: And not much of denomination [unclear]. The pastor was a Baptist preacher or pastor. SM: Yes, Pastor [Daniel] Kim, right? SL: Yes. Yes. SM: Yes. So he was Baptist. SL: Yes. 17

SM: Well, he was pretty intent on the Baptist [unclear] and so on, wasn’t he? SL: That’s right. Yes, that’s right. Yes. SM: Was that a factor in the split? SL: I don’t think that was . . . SM: Oh. SL: That the denomination has anything to do with the split. SM: I see. Yes. SL: And I wasn’t . . . I was not very active in the . . . in those days, the church. SM: I see. SL: I just watched it then. I guess it was . . . I don’t know. The difference in opinion between the minister, the pastor and the congregation. SM: Oh. SL: And then out of the congregation, you know, some people felt . . . a group of people felt the other group’s, you know, attitude or idea, opinion, was not . . . [unclear]. SM: Some sided with the pastor and some sided against? SL: Yes. That’s right. Exactly. YKL: Yes. SM: You don’t know what the issues were, do you? SL: The issues . . . I really . . . I really cannot say what the issues were exactly. I think all of them really started from kind of personal . . . SM: Oh. SL: Not really big issues. SM: [Unclear]. SL: You know, issues, you can make anytime out of the small personal things. 18

SM: [Chuckles] Right. Oh, yes. SL: So I think that was the case. SM: Yes. So you were here too then, weren’t you? SL: Yes. YKL: Yes. At that time, we came . . . A Lee Child: [Whining, not seriously] Mommy, my leg’s broken. YKL: [Chuckles] Your leg’s broken? A Lee Child: No, this leg. No, this leg. SL: Oh, the leg [unclear]. YKL: [Unclear] we don’t know much about that [unclear] church. [Unclear] Pastor Kim and [unclear]. We just looked at what’s going on in there. [Chuckles] SM: I see. SL: Yes, we’d just arrived in Minnesota about that time. YKL: Yes. SM: Yes. SL: And didn’t have much time to participate in it. YKL: Yes. SL: But the way I looked at it is . . . I don’t know. The minister, the pastor was . . . I don’t know. Do you think I can say like . . . so hard lined, not compromising . . . SM: Oh. That’s what his son said. SL: Yes. Not compromising. SM: I talked to his son and he was very inflexible. SL: And he’s . . . yes. I thought he was . . . he was a pretty good minister and a pastor. 19

SM: Yes, a scholarly . . . SL: Yes, a Korean, you know, scholar and . . . a man of principle. And very, you know, noncompromising. SM: Oh. Yes. SL: And the congregation wants a compromise from time to time, that sort of thing. SM: Yes. SL: So that I think that broke up the whole congregation. A Lee Child: [Unclear – loud babbling] SM: Well, now this Reverend Yu has just come recently, hasn’t he? SL: Yes. He has been here about a year. SM: Oh, he has been here. SL: Yes. SM: He was just recently . . . [unclear] recently. SL: We got into the . . . SM: Into the Presbyterians. SL: Into the Presbyterian, yes. SM: So he’s been here a year. SL: Yes. SM: Are the congregation pretty satisfied with his way or . . .? SL: Ah . . . yes. I guess so. SM: Yes. He seemed like a more flexible . . . SL: Yes. Yes. SM: I didn’t ever know Reverend Kim, but from what I heard . . . 20

SL: I guess more compromising. SM: Yes. SL: But I don’t know. [Chuckles] I think . . . alright, I was in Boston when I went to church and then after I came to Minnesota, I heard that church has been broken into two. [Chuckles] SM: [Unclear] in Boston? SL: Yes, when I went to it. SM: Yes. It’s an interesting thing. YKL: [Chuckles] SL: Yes, it’s very interesting. SM: But I didn’t know why. [Chuckles] SL: Yes. I think [unclear] sort of with the government, I mean . . . SM: Yes. SL: It’s not bad [unclear] American, you know, churches. SM: No. And I suppose since . . . especially in the Korean community people go there for fellowship. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: Then if it gets too big, maybe it’s a little harder. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: I don’t know. I’m trying to figure out why it split. [Chuckles] But I [unclear] all immigrant churches have had that [unclear]. SL: Yes. SM: Norwegian [unclear]. SL: Yes. SM: It isn’t only Koreans. 21

SL: I think so. Yes. SM: Well, so you’re a deacon now. What does that mean you do? SL: Mmmm. Service. [Chuckles] SM: Serve? SL: Yes, service. SM: Oh. SL: The . . . I . . . hmmm. I don’t know what [unclear] or something. SM: Do you make decisions? SL: We don’t make decisions. SM: You don’t make decisions. SL: The elders. SM: Oh, the elders. SL: Elders make the decisions. But we just . . . you know, carry out the . . . SM: You do what they tell you to do? [Chuckles] SL: Carry out the dirty work. [Chuckles] For the church. YKL: [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] Oh, I see. So the elders are the upper echelon. SL: Yes. Upper, yes. They make the decisions. SM: And the deacons carry them out? SL: Carry out the missions. SM: I see. How big is that congregation, do you know? SL: I guess . . . how big is it? About a hundred twenty? YKL: Around . . . [unclear]. 22

SM: Oh. SL: We have a membership of about a hundred fifty-five or a hundred sixty, I think. SM: And about a hundred and twenty attend? SL: Hundred twenty shows up, yes. YKL: Yes. SM: That’s pretty big, isn’t it? Do you work in the Sunday School or anything there? YKL: Ah . . . no [unclear]. SL: Sunday School. Well, she is taking care of the nursery. YKL: Nursery, yes. Right. [Chuckles] SM: Nursery, oh. SL: They take the . . . YKL: [Unclear]. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] [Unclear] I teach at the Sunday School. SM: Oh, I see. Which age group is that? SL: Mmmm. It’s five and six, school years. SM: Oh, little . . . oh, fifth and sixth grades. SL: Fifth and sixth grades, yes. SM: Yes. Well, do you use Korean materials then? SL: Ah . . . I use English materials. SM: You use English materials. SL: Yes. And I speak in English. SM: Yes. Is that true of most of the Sunday Schools or . . .? 23

SL: Most of them. And first and second year, first and second year, they speak . . . they use Korean. YKL: Yes. SM: I see. You mean like the nursery and . . .? SL: Yes, in the nursery, I think it’s Korean. YKL: In the nursery. Four and five, six years. SM: Oh. Up to six years. YKL: Yes. They can understand the, you know, Korean, but . . . upper grades, they cannot. SM: Oh, so it’s the ones that are home. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: Yes. Well, you speak Korean to your children it seems like [unclear]. YKL: Yes, Korean and [unclear]. SM: [Unclear]. I guess I had heard you talk English earlier. YKL: [Unclear] yes. SL: Yes. SM: Do they speak both languages [unclear]? YKL: He can speak Korean [words] . . . a few, but he can understand what Mommy talks, you know. [Chuckles] [Unclear]. SM: Yes. That’s good. [Chuckles] YKL: Right. SM: Is there any particular group that goes to this church more than . . . like more professionals or more . . .? SL: I guess . . . SM: Do you think it’s mixed? 24

SL: Mixed, yes, sort of mixed, but I guess a little more . . . a little more professionals, I would say. SM: More professionals. SL: Might be in the church. SM: Yes. SL: But the picture, you know, gradually . . . it’s been like about six months ago [unclear] it’s getting pretty mixed now. SM: It’s getting more [unclear]. SL: It’s getting more mixed, yes. SM: As I understand it, the [unclear] church in Oakdale has quite a lot of blue collar, or so-called blue collar. [Chuckles] SL: Yes. I guess that’s kind of . . . SM: They weren’t blue collar in Korea. SL: Yes. That’s sort of a . . . blue collar, but actually most of them are highly educated, again. SM: Yes. Right. I don’t know what they call them. SL: Again, they just don’t have the right word it, you know. SM: Yes. Right. SL: I mean, right job for them. SM: Yes. SL: That’s . . . I guess that’s the difference. SM: Right. YKL: Yes, usually most of them, they came over here for, I mean, you know, studying [unclear]. SL: Right. YKL: But he came over here to [unclear]. So they cannot go to school, you know. They got educated in Korea but they [unclear] so they cannot have a job. It’s like [unclear]. 25

SM: It’s really a predicament. SL: Yes, that’s right. Yes. SM: So the best off, I suppose, are the ones who got their training here. YKL: Yes. SM: So that there’s no problem in getting a job in their field. SL: Yes. SM: What were you studying, by the way? YKL: The biology. SL: Biology? Oh. Yes. YKL: But I told you I don’t know about [unclear] history. [Chuckles] I hate history. [Laughter] SM: Oh! How could you say that? [Chuckles] SL: [Laughter] YKL: [Chuckles] We have four thousand years in history. It’s too long and complicated. SM: [Chuckles] Well, it’s very short in Minnesota’s. SL: [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] SM: Four thousand years. That is a lot to study. SL: [Chuckles] SM: Well, do you plan to someday try to work in biology or . . .? YKL: Mmmm. SM: Well, it’s too hard to know what . . . what the future is, but . . . YKL: Yes. [Chuckles] Yes, right now I don’t have any, you know, plans [unclear] but later, you know, in three or four years. 26

SL: Yes. YKL: [Unclear] little ones going to school, then what can I do at home the whole day, you know. [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] YKL: So I have to go out and make money and spend the time with the other people. SM: Yes. Well, do you take part in some community things here in Stillwater or . . .? YKL: [Unclear]? SM: [Unclear] would be, since you go to church somewhere else [unclear]. YKL: No. SM: Oh, I suppose when your children go to school, then there will be more like parents organizations. YKL: Yes, he’s going to nursery school. SM: Oh, he does now. YKL: Yes. SM: Yes, that’s it. YKL: Yes. [Unclear] he cried every day. Not every day, but just most of days. SM: Yes. Do you take other children, too? YKL: Yes. SM: Oh, I see. It’s a carpool. Yes. So most of the women you know then are in this neighborhood? YKL: Neighborhood [unclear]. SM: Do a lot of these families work at 3M? YKL: In the neighborhood? 27

SM: Yes. YKL: One, two, three . . . so it’s not most of them. [Unclear]. SM: Your colleagues from work don’t live here too much then? SL: Oh, it . . . they do. SM: They do? SL: Yes, we have . . . in the same building we have about five guys here in this neighborhood. SM: Oh. SL: [Unclear]. SM: Hmmm. Including the Hans [unclear]. SL: So [unclear] couple [unclear]. SM: Yes. SL: I guess, oh, probably about fifty percent of this whole area. SM: [Unclear]. Oh, really? Oh. SL: Yes. Maybe forty-five. SM: That’s [unclear] sort of thought. SL: Yes, forty-five, fifty percent. SM: I usually take that bus that comes right past here. [Chuckles] SL: Oh, I see. SM: And all these people that look like 3M people get on. [Chuckles] YKL: Right. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] Typical. SM: Fifty percent. 28

SL: I guess. YKL: Too much. Thirty maybe? [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] SL: Okay, forty, forty-five. SM: That’s what you could do in your spare time, a survey. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] SM: Well, Mr. Lee at the [unclear] company. SL: Yes. SM: Goes to that Community Church. SL: Yes. SM: Yes, Community Church. And he said that that’s known as mostly professional. And some people say they’re arrogant. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] SM: That was he said that himself. [Chuckles] But it seems there’s quite a bit of professionals in all the churches. SL: Yes. SM: Since there is such a high proportion of them, of professionals here in the Korean community. SL: Yes. SM: Well, do you think that there will always be a Korean community here in terms of organizations and so on? Or do you think gradually the people will integrate into . . .? Or maybe there will always be need for that? Or say the Korean churches, will they continue? SL: Actually, that’s . . . that’s sort of a big issue for determining the direction of the churches, I think. SM: Oh. Yes. 29

SL: It’s going to be . . . actually, that issue has been raised. SM: Yes. SL: You know, whether a long term planning . . . you know, whether really have in mind that the Korean church is going to be ever-present all the time for when the second generation and third generation comes in. SM: Yes. Or whether new immigrants will be coming will make some difference. SL: New immigrants coming, yes. And I guess the consensus is as long as the new immigrants keep coming there is a need and there will be a Korean community church. I mean, you know, Korean . . . SM: Yes. SL: But when there is [chuckles] not so many immigrants, when the second generation, third generation, it may be a little difficult to keep that . . . that character, that nature of it. SM: Yes. Yes. SL: And we just don’t know what’s going to happen. SM: Right. Well, I don’t see any reason the immigration would stop. SL: Yes. SM: But then you never know what might happen internationally or something. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: They would be the main ones interested then. SL: Right. SM: [Unclear]. SL: And we’re trying to raise the kids sort of Korean. It’s sort of impossible, and that’s the only hope that, you know, they . . . the only reason they can participate in sort of Korean church or Korean community later on. But I think it’s going to be very difficult. SM: Yes.

30

SL: They will be more . . . you know, they’re more comfortable with a congregation where, you know, English is spoken rather that Korean and [unclear] don’t you think? YKL: Oh. SL: That that may be the case. SM: Well, they may take a kind of dual identity, too, maybe. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: Well, I’m sure your children are too young to worry about it now. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] SM: But I imagine you have given it some thought, you know, whether they will feel Korean or feel American, or Korean American. SL: I think they will feel Korean when they become . . . you know, until they’re sixteen years old. YKL: Yes. SM: Until they’re sixteen? SL: Well, I don’t know. Maybe . . . YKL: Even he knows. SL: Even earlier than that. YKL: Yes, he knows that Mommy’s ways are different from other people and . . . SM: Oh. Oh, he’s said . . . YKL: And Mommy and Daddy can speak in other different language. He knows. SM: And he’s only [unclear]? SL: Yes. YKL: Three and a half. SM: Three and a half. Have you emphasized that with him or he’s picked it up on his own? 31

YKL: Hmmm. [Unclear] yes. SL: He’s just observed. YKL: He’s [unclear]. SL: Yes, observed. SM: Yes. Well, he also knows you go to a church . . . SL: Oh, yes. YKL: Yes. SM: That all are Korean [unclear]. SL: Yes. [Laughter] SM: He looks peaceful there. SL: Yes. [Laughter] SM: Well, I guess . . . Mr. Ko, I was talking to this afternoon. SL: Yes. SM: And he was saying some of them who have older teenager children, teenagers, that it has arisen that they’ve said, you know, indicated they would . . . a little questioning of their own intent to [unclear]. SL: Yes. SM: But that’s why they felt that school was so important, too. SL: Yes. SM: To give them an identity as Koreans. SL: Right. When I was in Boston we also . . . and since I was educated . . . because I was . . . I spent most my youth life in Korea. 32

SM: Yes. SL: I was pretty much . . . and I am pretty much Korean now. SM: Yes. SL: And we sort of had a workshop for the high school kids, the second generation. SM: Oh. Yes. SL: And the big issue is the identity sort of crisis, and what they think about being Korean and being American. And I guess most of them wanted to be identified as a Korean. SM: Oh. Yes. SL: Not necessarily when they were, you know, like in the primary school. SM: Yes. SL: Simply because their face is difference, you know, they look different. SM: Yes. SL: But once they grew up, they wanted to be identified as Korean, you know. And then the best term they want to be identified as a Korean American. SM: Oh, yes. Because they weren’t absolutely Korean. SL: They are not absolutely Korean. SM: Where if they went to Korea they’d feel a little . . . too . . . SL: Sure. YKL: Right. SL: They don’t have the kind of confidence say for example I would have. SM: You’re right. SL: Well, I grew . . . I got trained all in Korean way of thinking and all these things. SM: Yes. SL: They don’t have that kind of confidence. 33

SM: Right. SL: So that way they want to be also identified as a, you know, Korean American. SM: Well, the both of you, I’m sure, feel very Korean. SL: Yes. SM: Are there some ways that your life as . . . your family life or whatever has changed in this environment? I mean, it has to change some. [Chuckles] Even though you feel very Korean say in raising your children, is it a little bit adapted to the American way or mainly Korean or . . .? Anything you’ve noticed? Or would have pretty much the same way in Korea? SL: I guess . . . in the education and raising of our kids, we are very much . . . we are following pretty much American way, aren’t we? YKL: Yes. SM: Oh. SL: Yes, we are, you know, say I suppose, but sixty to seventy percent in the American way, right? YKL: Yes. SM: I see. SL: We can say say that? YKL: Yes. SL: Yes, I think so. SM: So he’s brought up quite a bit like his friends then? SL: Yes, right. Yes. YKL: Yes. SM: Yes. Well, that’s interesting. And he certain speaks English [unclear]. SL: Yes.

34

SM: [Unclear]. What about like husband and wife kind of things? Mr. Ko was talking about that. [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] SM: Maybe you don’t want to talk about that. YKL: [Laughter] SL: [Chuckles] SM: Or Mrs. Ko was talking about it. [Chuckles] YKL: [Laughter] SL: [Laughter] I think I am very much Korean. I don’t think I’ve changed a bit. SM: [Laughter] YKL: Before we got married he’s the . . . I thought he’s really kind of [unclear] you know, he’s getting Americanized. SM: [Laughing] Oh, you did? YKL: Yes. Yes. I mean the Americanizing is, you know, not very bossed around in the . . . you know, home is a man’s castle, you know, something like that. SL: That’s the American way, isn’t it? [Chuckles] YKL: No! That’s . . . is it? Is it? [Chuckles] SM: [Laughter] SL: [Laughing] Oh, you don’t have to say it. SM: Now we’re getting really confused! [Chuckles] YKL: [Unclear]. SL: No, you don’t have it. No, you don’t have to say anymore, okay, alright. Yes. SM: You say about being not so bossy. YKL: Yes. 35

SM: He was being American. In other words, a little more equal kind of relationship. YKL: Yes. [Unclear]. SL: Yes. SM: [Chuckles] YKL: The American, you know, as long as I know that that neighborhood husbands, you know, they help their wives a lot. They, you know, clean the kitchen and house work thing, you know. They [unclear] you know, bathe kids and putting to bed and . . . SL: [Chuckles] SM: Yes. YKL: But the Korean man doesn’t do that. SL: [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] YKL: Oh, it’s . . . the Korean woman is really spoiled, you know. SM: Oh. YKL: Because that . . . in case, and even I . . . when I was in college I had my own maid, because it’s very cheap, you know. SL: Yes. YKL: We had . . . my family is not very wealthy, you know, rich, but it is . . . SM: Everybody. YKL: Yes, everybody can have that. So I didn’t, you know, even I didn’t wash then my handkerchiefs all by myself. But came over here and get married, you know, I am really the maid. SM: Yes. [Chuckles] So the situation is so different from in Korea. YKL: Yes. SM: Because there aren’t maids. 36

SL: Yes. SM: Both the wife and the husband take a little different role and so forth. YKL: Yes. That . . . that, you know, really [unclear]. [Chuckles] [Unclear]. SM: So it’s sort of a [unclear] to come now for you, too. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] YKL: [Laughter] SM: Because you’re being the maid. [Chuckles] He feels he’s being the maid. YKL: [Chuckles] Yes. SL: [Chuckles] SM: Well, somebody has to be the maid. [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] He’s the . . . he was a nice man. SL: [Chuckles] YKL: And he went to Korea this April. SM: Yes. Oh, he went to Korea? SL: Yes, I visited. YKL: Yes, he went to Korea. SM: Oh. YKL: And he’s come back to, you know . . . [unclear]. SM: [Chuckles] Oh, he regressed! YKL: He regressed. SL: [Laughter] SM: [Laughing] Regressed. YKL: Yes, typical Korean [unclear] yes. 37

SM: Well, it seemed to be [unclear]. [Chuckles] According to the wives. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] Especially he really likes Korean food. SM: Oh, yes. Do you eat Korean food mainly or all together? YKL: I have to cook, you know, different, two kinds of meals, American and . . . SL: [Chuckles] SM: You mean the children like . . .? YKL: Yes, [unclear]. It’s too hot and, you know, spicy [unclear]. I hate that [unclear]. But he hates that [unclear]. [Laughter] SL: [Chuckles] YKL: I am used to, you know . . . SM: Which kind do you [unclear]? YKL: [Unclear] I am . . . SM: Oh, wait. You say you eat . . .? YKL: I’m used to, you know, making two kinds of meals, you know. I don’t expect helping me, you know, to do that. SM: Oh, you don’t expect him to help. YKL: No. [Chuckles] SM: Yes. But he has to have Korean food. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] I think most of Korean men [unclear] that. SM: Well, what about you? Do you prefer Korean food, too? YKL: I don’t . . . I really don’t care about, you know . . . 38

SM: Oh, yes. YKL: But when I was hospitalized because I have, you know, a baby. SM: Oh. YKL: Stayed three or four days at the hospital. I really enjoyed that there, you know. SM: [Chuckles] YKL: It was very comfortable. [Chuckles] SM: Enjoyed having someone else cook [unclear]. [Chuckles] SL: [Laughter] YKL: [Laughter] SM: Well, who cooked for you? [Chuckles] YKL: [Laughter] SL: [Laughter] I went out and bought. YKL: [Laughter] SM: Oh. [Chuckles] Did you buy Korean food? YKL: [Chuckles] SL: Oh, no. That was . . . SM: Or Chinese down at [unclear]? [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] SM: Well, I see. But the kids like American food. YKL: Kids like American food. SM: Well, where did they learn to like it? At nursery school or at their friends’ houses or . . .? YKL: [Unclear]. I don’t know why, you know. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] 39

SM: [Chuckles] Or maybe children at this different . . . SL: Yes, I guess the baby food is sort of that . . . that way, isn’t it? YKL: Yes. Baby food. [Unclear]. SM: It’s more mild. SL: Yes, more mild and more . . . more meat and . . . YKL: Mild and the American [unclear] flavors. SM: Oh, the American baby food. SL: Yes. Yes. That sort of American . . . SM: I see. So that set the taste from . . . SL: Yes. That . . . yes. That’s what I think. SM: Yes. Well, would Korean babies eat very hot stuff? SL: No. YKL: No, the same. SL: The same, but they eat more rice. SM: Oh, yes. YKL: They eat more rice every day, you know. When they grow up, but they change that . . . flavors. SM: Yes. YKL: They, you know, should have that kind of thing but . . . but if, you know, in America if kids . . . I don’t want it, but I can give others, you know, American food. SM: Yes. Oh, yes. That’s true. YKL: Yes. SM: So that makes extra work for you, doesn’t it? [Chuckles] 40

YKL: Yes. SM: Well, are some meals more Korean, like the evening meal or . . .? YKL: [Unclear] most but the morning and lunch is keep . . . everybody can have American food [unclear] and you know, sausage, eggs [unclear]. SL: Oh, yes. YKL: Main meal, dinner is [unclear] you know, cook the Korean food for him, for me. [Chuckles] SM: I see. Yes. I see. Well, Korean food is more work, isn’t it, to fix? YKL: Right. [Recording interruption] SM: Oh. More about those . . . the kind of activities at the church, where they have service projects, helping the church in Korea or . . . what kinds of things the women do at the church. YKL: Our church is only one and a half years. SM: Yes. YKL: It didn’t have [unclear] very well. We just have the women’s [unclear]. SL: Yes. YKL: Women’s organization. So . . . SM: What does that do? YKL: We do . . . it usually [unclear] to the [unclear]. SM: Oh. [Unclear] Korean family. YKL: [Unclear]. SM: The women go by themselves? YKL: Yes. SM: I see. What about when babies are born? 41

YKL: Babies born [unclear] the last [unclear] Thanksgiving day, [unclear] this Christmas day we’re going to . . . we’re making the Korean food for every . . . every, you know . . . [chuckles] of Korean . . . SL: The congregation, yes. SM: The whole congregation? YKL: Yes. [Chuckles] SL: The whole congregation, yes. YKL: Whole congregation. [Chuckles] SM: That’s going to be three days of work. YKL: [Chuckles] SL: And then there is a picnic. And most of the time in the picnic the women always prepare the foods. SM: Oh. SL: Picnic. SM: There’s a picnic [unclear]? SL: No, no, no. Once a year. YKL: In the summer. SM: [Chuckles] Oh, in the summer. YKL: [Unclear]. SL: Yes, once a year we have a picnic. YKL: Twice a year. SL: Yes, twice. Twice, yes. SM: Twice a year. Oh. In fall or summer or . . .? YKL: Both. 42

SM: Both. SL: Yes, it’s both fall . . . SM: Oh, I see. And so the women’s organization makes the food for this. YKL: [Unclear]. SM: So the women do a lot of cooking in church then, or for the church. SL: Yes. SM: Do they have some other kinds of fundraising activities [unclear]? YKL: Fundraising . . . SM: To raise money or . . .? YKL: [Unclear] yes. We [unclear] funds for the [unclear] build our own church. SM: Oh, the building fund. Oh, to build your own church. SL: Then also . . . yes, they have . . . I think [unclear] is going to have some kind of bazaar next year. YKL: [Unclear]. SL: Yes, bazaar to raise funds, mainly for the building, I guess, for the church building. SM: Oh. Next year you’re going to? SL: Yes. And then this year, you sold those kitchen utensils. YKL: Oh, yes. Now we sold [unclear] made . . . [chuckles] made the egg rolls that [unclear]. SL: Egg rolls, yes. SM: Oh. YKL: We made them. Yes. SL: Yes. SM: I see. Did you make a lot of money on them? 43

YKL: Mmmm, one hundred fifty [unclear]. SL: One hundred and fifty hours of work? [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] SM: That is a lot of work, isn’t it, making the egg rolls? YKL: Ah . . . I didn’t work [chuckles] you know, not . . . I don’t . . . they made . . . [unclear] egg rolls [unclear]. Not a lot of work. SM: Oh. That’s good. You didn’t make the wrapper around them? YKL: Mmmm, no [unclear] already made it [unclear]. SM: Yes. Oh, yes. So the women do like helping people and raising money and cooking food either to raise money or to eat. YKL: Yes. [Unclear]. SM: Yes. What kind of thing does the pastor’s wife do, or the minister’s wife? Does she join in [unclear]? YKL: No. She’s not . . . she is one of the, you know, [unclear]. SM: Oh. YKL: She’s not working, I don’t think, she cannot . . . [unclear]. I don’t know. I cannot [unclear]. SM: Well, somebody told me, one of the others, that she couldn’t be elected to any office. Is that true in your church? She couldn’t be like chairman of something? YKL: No. No. SM: Oh. Well, where did that start? Was that a Korean church custom or . . .? YKL: I don’t . . . the American church now . . . SL: I don’t know. YKL: They . . . SL: Usually in Korea also, [unclear] I didn’t pay too much attention to it, but . . . 44

YKL: Yes. But I think that reason is, you know, if she . . . if she is . . . SL: Elected. YKL: Is elected, you know, chairman or something like this . . . SM: Yes. YKL: She cannot now make a decision, you know . . . SL: Fairly. YKL: For this, you know . . . SM: Yes. She wouldn’t be partial or something. YKL: Yes. SL: Oh, I see. Yes. I don’t know if there is a rule on it or something like that, but, you know, nobody . . . YKL: Not rules. SL: I haven’t seen any wives of the ministers in Korea having any title. SM: Yes. I see. But they enter into the work of the . . . SL: Yes. I think so. SM: [Unclear]. Would they go with their husband in making pastoral calls in people’s homes? SL: Most of the time she does. SM: Yes. SL: When they make pastoral calls or visit people. YKL: Yes. SL: They come together. But the . . . I guess all these . . . you know, [unclear] churches, sometimes the wives are working, sometimes the ministers wives are not working. YKL: Oh, yes. SL: Especially when she works, it gets tougher. 45

YKL: Yes. SM: What about when you came here from Boston? Did you think of the church as a way of making friends with other Koreans? SL: Mmmm. SM: Or you just wanted to go to church? Or both? [Chuckles] SL: Both, I guess. SM: Yes. SL: At first . . . at first we wanted to meet people, I guess. Right, then maybe more, correct? So and then I got a little more serious about it, you know. SM: Was that ever an issue in your church, that [unclear] whether, you know, which comes first, the social needs or the religious needs of people? SL: Mmmm. It’s . . . I guess in our church it’s kind of taken for granted that it’s a religious. SM: Yes. SL: A lot of people either by conversion or from the origin are very religious [unclear]. SM: Oh. Yes. Especially the ones that are newly . . . SL: Yes, newly [unclear]. SM: Newly [unclear] yes. SL: Yes. Most of them have experience with the Presbyterian Church. SM: Oh, in Korea? SL: Yes. SM: Yes. SL: In Korea, by the way, Presbyterian Church is the biggest denomination of Christianity. YKL: Church is, yes.

46

SM: It’s the biggest. Well, would you say most of them were Presbyterian or Christian before they came? SL: In our church? SM: But most of the ones in your church. Yes. SL: In our church, I guess so. I guess that figure is about sixty percent of them. SM: Yes. SL: They have been Christian. SM: I see. But not necessarily Presbyterian? SL: Maybe about eighty percent out of those, you know, sixty percent maybe Presbyterian. SM: I see. SL: I suppose. Wouldn’t you say? YKL: Yes. SM: Yes, that is a big . . . SL: You know, it’s that big. SM: Yes, it is a really big group. SL: Yes. Somehow that Presbyterian church has gotten big in Korea. SM: Yes. And is Methodist about the next biggest? SL: Yes. Methodist is about the next biggest. SM: Do you know anything about the Seventh Day Adventist Church here? SL: Mmmm. I haven’t . . . SM: I haven’t found anyone who belongs to it. [Chuckles] But somebody told me there was one. Seventh Day. SL: Seventh Day. That’s . . . yes, I heard about it. SM: Oh, you did hear about it. 47

SL: I heard about it. Yes, even in Korea, I heard about it. SM: Oh. Yes. SL: There were, you know, churches, and it was very . . . SM: I think it might be a very small [unclear]. SL: Very small. SM: Yes. SL: But I really don’t know much about it. SM: Yes. Well, do you take part in things like the Korean Association and all of that or are you active in that or . . .? SL: Mmmm, not very active. Somewhat. I guess mainly it’s because of the kids and the business. YKL: Yes. SL: We want to but really cannot. SM: [Unclear] it is part of [unclear]. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: Well, do you plan to take them to Korean school? Or is it too early to know? [Chuckles] SL: Yes, when they grow up. SM: Yes. SL: Yes, we plan to. It’s like once a week. SM: Yes. SL: On Saturday. Yes. But almost [unclear]. SM: Oh. Well, I think that was mainly what I was going to ask you. Let’s check here. I guess that was mainly the [unclear] to ask you. Is there anything else that I should have asked you? [Chuckles] SL: Mmmm. 48

SM: As soon as I get home I usually think of something I wish I had asked, you know. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] Oh, you can ask any time later, too. SM: I can maybe call you up if I have a question. SL: Yes. YKL: Yes [unclear]. SM: Well, actually, you don’t live so far from . . . SL: Yes. SM: I live in Marine on Saint Croix. YKL: Oh. SM: Well, it’s nice to know there’s some Koreans in the neighborhood. [Chuckles] SL: Yes. Yes. SM: I don’t think there are any in Marine that I know. But I don’t know very many people there. [Chuckles] SL: Mmmm. SM: We haven’t lived there very long. SL: Yes. I don’t think there are too many . . . there is, as far as we know, I don’t think there’s anyone. SM: Oh, yes. You would know, I’m sure. SL: I don’t think there is anyone there. SM: It’s such a tiny place anyway. [Chuckles] But we don’t live actually in town. We live out in the country. SL: I see. SM: And we really don’t know a lot of the people in the town. 49

SL: Yes. SM: Because we didn’t come there very long ago. Hmmm. Well, the groups that are sort of on the periphery of the community, the servicemen’s wives and the adopted children. SL: Yes. SM: They both take part in some things, don’t they? Or the Korean adopted children do, I guess, go to that school. SL: Yes. They go to that Korean school quite a bit of . . . SM: Yes. SL: We don’t . . . unfortunately, I don’t think they participate too much in the church actually. SM: Oh. They probably go to American churches. SL: Probably, yes. The American. And if they go, I think most, a lot of them goes to . . . and that’s, I think, very reasonable that way. SM: Yes, since their family . . . SL: Families, yes. SM: Couldn’t understand the Korean. SL: Yes. Right. SM: Well, do the servicemen’s wives go to the churches? Or do they go to their husbands’ churches or . . .? SL: Mmmm . . . some . . . SM: I guess it’s complicated when one is not Korean. SL: Yes, sometimes . . . in our church are there . . .? Let’s see . . . I don’t think there is . . . yes. One or two families in our church. SM: Oh. Oh. SL: And in the church before, we had also, I guess, two or three, a couple of families. SM: Of the servicemen’s people? 50

SL: Yes. They may not . . . SM: Do their husbands come, too? SL: Yes, they come, too. SM: Oh. SL: And they were servicemen, but, you know, they are not now. SM: They’re not now. Do they understand Korean? Or maybe some? SL: I guess a little bit. SM: Yes. SL: Some just a little bit. But most of them communicate [unclear] in English. I don’t know. Maybe they are not servicemen. Somehow they got married and . . . SM: Anyway, they are mixed marriages. SL: Yes, they are mixed. Yes. SM: Well, yes, they wouldn’t all be servicemen either. SL: Yes, they are not all of them. SM: Well, I’ve noticed in the few churches I’ve visited so far, I haven’t been to the Presbyterian. But the singing is very nice. And very nice music. SL: Yes. And I think that the choir’s quality, I think is pretty good. SM: Yes. SL: Because, you know, a lot of them are not amateurs, they are . . . again, they are, you know, music students. SM: Oh. Oh. Oh, maybe that’s one reason. SL: So yes, and a lot of them are. SM: I was wondering why the choir seemed unusual. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] That’s about the . . . that’s about the only way . . . that’s about the only place they find the profession. 51

SM: Yes. They can use it. SL: And because the . . . yes, they can use it. And they don’t have other job, they couldn’t find a singing job, usually [unclear]. So it’s pretty . . . YKL: [Chuckles] SM: Yes. That’s really a difficult problem. SL: Yes. SM: How to use their training when they immigrate. It seems a waste, doesn’t it, in a way. YKL: Yes. SL: Yes. SM: But I suppose the language is one big problem. SL: Mmmm, it may . . . I think they . . . the type of profession may be a little more . . . more of a problem here. SM: Oh, yes. That makes sense. SL: Yes, that. And then maybe language then next. SM: Right. What about doctors? If they are trained in Korea do they have to take exams? SL: Yes. They have to retrain here. SM: Oh, they have to go through the whole training? SL: They don’t have to go to school again. SM: Oh. They have to take the . . . SL: But they have to go through an internship and then . . . SM: Oh, they do the internship? SL: Yes, have to . . . have to go through . . . SM: Well, do quite a few do that? 52

SL: Yes. SM: Or do most of them get the training here then? I mean, go through all the . . . SL: I guess. I guess so for most of the doctors here. Korean doctors. Educated in Korea and they’re trained here, internship. SM: I see. SL: And then, you know, either practicing or working at a hospital. SM: So they can get the medical school there and then come here for internship and then they’re okay? SL: Right. Yes. Sure. SM: Oh, I see. And they have quite a few Korean doctors in the Twin Cities. SL: Yes, we have quite a bit of them. SM: But not so many Korean nurses? Is that . . .? SL: I guess there are a fair number of nurses, too. SM: Oh, are there? SL: Yes. SM: Oh. SL: In our . . . even in our . . . SM: Are they at the University Hospital or everywhere really? YKL: I know for the Midway Hospital. SM: Oh, at the Midway Hospital? SL: Yes, there are a couple. I think they are almost everywhere [unclear]. SM: Oh. YKL: Everywhere. SM: Are they trained here or can they transfer? 53

YKL: I think they have [unclear] exam. SM: Oh, they [unclear]. SL: Yes. They’d have to pass the exam and then . . . YKL: [Unclear] they pass that exam, they can work. SL: And then they can . . . yes, they can start working. SM: I see. So it’s mainly a matter of learning English then? SL: Yes. SM: Or maybe they already know it. SL: In that case, it’s really . . . language may be a real problem. Not a real problem as an important thing. SM: Yes. SL: Because I think they are . . . they are skilled enough to do the job. SM: Yes. [Unclear]. SL: Yes. SM: Is there a nurse’s association at all? Korean nurses? SL: I don’t know. I don’t know. SM: There is a doctor’s one in Minneapolis. SL: Yes. I don’t know anything about that. There may be. But again . . . YKL: I know that in Chicago [unclear] that they have [unclear]. SL: They do. YKL: I don’t know about here. SM: Yes. SL: I don’t know about here. 54

SM: Hmmm. Well, thank you very much for your help on this. SL: Yes. Oh, we have also a scientist association, too. [Chuckles] SM: Oh, you do? Oh, then you’re quite [unclear]. SL: Yes, I am just . . . and engineer. Engineer association. SM: It’s called the Korean Scientists? SL: Yes, it’s called . . . yes, Korean Scientists and Engineers . . . SM: And engineers. SL: . . . Association. The Minnesota Chapter. SM: Oh, so it’s a nationwide . . . SL: It’s a national organization. SM: It’s an association? SL: Yes. SM: Korean Scientists and Engineers Association? SL: Yes. SM: The Minnesota Chapter. SL: Yes. SM: Well, does that meet regularly then or . . .? SL: No, not really. It’s mostly by mail. SM: Oh. SL: Yes, information and you know, how their members are doing, that kind of thing. SM: Oh, I see. So somebody does the work of sending that out? SL: Yes. There is a . . . 55

YKL: They have . . . they go to Korea every couple years. SL: Oh, yes. SM: Oh. YKL: They have a . . . SL: Chartered trip. YKL: Charter trip [unclear]. SM: The Scientist group? SL: Yes. SM: Oh. SL: Every other year [unclear]. YKL: [Unclear] go to Korea and they have seminars and conference [unclear]. SM: Oh. I see. With Korean scientists? SL: Yes. SM: Yes. Well, that’s interesting. Hmmm. Who is the . . . are you a member of that or . . .? SL: Oh, yes. I am a member, very . . . yes, I am a member. SM: Are you the president or anything? [Chuckles] SL: No. I am sort of a vice president. YKL: [Unclear] yes. SM: [Laughing] You’re sort of the vice president. SL: [Chuckles] We don’t have . . . YKL: [Chuckles] [Unclear]. SL: We are not that good at organization here. But you know, sort of a vice president. SM: [Chuckles] Yes. 56

YKL: [Unclear]. SL: You alright there? YKL: Yes. [Thumping noises] SM: So you work on sending this stuff out or . . .? SL: Yes. I send these . . . SM: Hmmm. Is that a large membership? SL: It’s . . . we are about thirty-five to forty. SM: Oh. Are they usually scientists that work in corporations mostly or . . .? SL: About half of them are in corporations and half of us schools. SM: At schools. SL: Yes. University of Minnesota [UM] and . . . SM: UM and . . . SL: Yes, UM. SM: Are there other particular places? SL: Most of them . . . most of them are UM. SM: Most of them. Hmmm. Well, that’s interesting. Because it does seem like so many of the Asian immigrants go into the science fields. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: Is that because language isn’t quite such a problem? Or they just are interested in that? SL: Ah . . . I guess . . . SM: Better jobs? SL: Well, it’s easier to get over here in this [unclear]. 57

SM: Oh, I see. SL: Yes. [Unclear] with a science background [unclear] may even for school, you know, they are easier to come over here because they [unclear]. SM: I see. Easier to get scholarships? SL: Scholarships. SM: Oh, yes. SL: And they know, you know, they can . . . if they want to live there and get a job and so on . . . SM: Yes, you can always get a good, secure job. SL: Yes, whereas in humanities, part of it is kind of difficult. SM: [Unclear]. SL: So that . . . I guess that’s where most of . . . that’s what kind of decided the ratios here. SM: I see. Well, what exactly do you do [unclear]? SL: I am . . . the title is supervisor. SM: Supervisor. SL: Yes. But I’m doing, you know, like research and development [unclear]. SM: In development of . . .? SL: Of materials, engineering materials. SM: Oh, I see. So you supervise the research of a number of people. SL: Yes, the research and development, yes. SM: I see. How many do you supervise there? SL: Ah . . . five. SM: Five people. I see. Do you plan the research then for the group to work on?

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SL: Yes, part of the . . . it’s sort of a product [unclear] type thing, you know. I plan and I’m responsible of that project. SM: I see. So the research is done by a group rather than one person working on something then. SL: Yes. Yes. SM: Hmmm. Well, was there anything else that we should touch on or . . .? SL: [Chuckles] I guess . . . SM: I guess we could stay here all night. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] Yes. SM: It’s nice to have an excuse to talk with you. SL: [Chuckles] SM: Well, thank you very much. SL: Oh, you’re welcome. SM: And I hope we can keep in touch. SL: Sure. SM: And I’m learning a little bit more about what you’re doing. How do you like Stillwater, by the way? YKL: Oh . . . SM: As the town rather than just the neighborhood? YKL: I like it. [Chuckles] I like Stillwater. [Chuckles] Yes. SM: [Chuckles] Do you notice how historic it is? [Chuckles] They’ve tried to keep it as an old historic town. YKL: Yes. SM: Not completely successfully. SL: Yes. 59

YKL: Stillwater is the oldest city in Minnesota. SM: Yes. Yes, in Marine they say the same thing though. [Chuckles] They say that Marine is the oldest. YKL: Do they? SL: Oh. Yes. SM: Yes. YKL: Do they have a downtown? SM: It’s much smaller. YKL: Okay. SM: There’s a little village just off of Ninety-Five and then on the West side, too, there’s . . . up on the hill there’s the school and church and quite a big . . . or it’s a small residential area. But it was originally a milling center. SL: Yes. SM: [Unclear] where the logs came in and were [unclear] cut for the [unclear]. It was at one time called Marine Mills. SL: Yes. SM: But . . . well, Stillwater was a big lumber town, too. SL: Yes, it was. Yes, it was big in lumber. SM: Yes. I’m sure Stillwater was much more important. [Chuckles] SL: [Chuckles] SM: It’s bigger. SL: But, you know, our . . . about the history, I, you know, my way or I think same with her way, it will be different from [unclear], but . . . SM: Yes. [Chuckles] SL: Of looking at the historic thing, historic site or anything like that is . . . looks like it is a little different from . . . from, you know, from the historic thing generally talked about here or in 60

Stillwater or in some other town. And the main difference is when we talk about historic sites and historic things, that’s a grand . . . like, you know, a grand, big thing, or, you know. SM: Oh, sure. SL: Like real . . . I don’t know. Maybe . . . SM: A masterpiece or . . . SL: Masterpiece and that sort of thing. SM: Yes. SL: And I think that’s sort of a main difference. And most of the historic sites and historic items, things like that, maybe because . . . maybe it’s because Korea was smaller. It’s about the size of Minnesota. SM: Well, Korea has a much longer history. SL: Yes. So, you know, when we [unclear]. [Chuckles] SM: Minnesota is such a child yet. [Chuckles] SL: Yes, it is. [Chuckles] YKL: [Chuckles] SM: Yes. [Chuckles] SL: Yes, that’s the difference. SM: Yes. SL: And that’s the difference. SM: Yes, the Midwest is really pretty recently the . . . SL: Yes. Even in the Eastern side of Washington, even in Boston, they talk about Old North Church and old big things. SM: Right. SL: I went there, oh, is this historical? [Chuckles] YKL: [Laughter] 61

SM: [Laughter] This country is still a baby. SL: That’s right. Yes. SM: Yes. Right. SL: Yes, so in this sense it’s kind of . . . SM: Yes, that is quite a contrast with Asia, of course, where it goes back four thousand years. YKL: Yes. [Unclear] that the American kids is very lucky because they have a short, you know, history. SM: [Laughter] YKL: They can have . . . you know, study the history of [unclear] you know. SM: But the trouble is the country is so big, you have to study here, and here, and here, and here. [Chuckles] SL: [Laughter] YKL: [Laughter] Oh, yes. That’s [unclear]. SM: The West is different from the East. [Chuckles] SL: Yes. Yes. Sure. SM: They manage to make it hard enough. [Chuckles] SL: [Laughter] YKL: [Laughter] SM: Well, thank you for this. SL: Yes. SM: Let’s turn this off.

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