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Interview with Joo Ho Sung


Joo Ho Sung was born in 1927 in Taejon, Ch'ungchong Province, Korea. He was educated at Yonsei University and Medical College and arrived in the United States in July of 1954 to take residency at Beth Israel Hospital in Neward, New Jersey. After completing his residency he enrolled in July of 1957 at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons in New York City for graduate study in neuropathology. In July of 1961 he was appointed assistant professor at that institution, and in January of 1962 he was appointed assistant professor in charge of the neuropathology laboratory at the University of Minnesota Medical School. He became an associate professor in 1966 and a full professor in 1969. He was a leader in Minnesota's Korean community from 1962 to 1972. SUBJECTS DISCUSSED: History of Koreans in Minnesota, with a focus on the period from 1962 to 1972 - development of community organizations including the Korean Student Association, the Korean Association, the Korean Medical Association, the Korean Bible Study Group, the Korean Christian Fellowship, the Korean Church of the Twin Cities, the Korean Community Church, and later denominational churches in the Korean community - exchange programs between the University of Minnesota and Seoul National University in the 1950s - and the role of Koreans in the 1970 Aquatennial in Minneapolis. COMMENTS ON INTERVIEW: Sung was chosen by Korean leaders in Minnesota as the community's spokesman to assist Minnesota Historical Society staff in compiling a history of Koreans in the state. His interview provides valuable insights into the dynamics of the community.





World Region



Dr. Joo Ho Sung Narrator Sarah Mason Interviewer February 7, March 13 and November 20, 1980 Minneapolis, Minnesota

Dr. Joo Ho Sung Sarah Mason

- JHS - SM

SM: I'm talking to Dr. Joo Ho Sung at the University of Minnesota Medical School on February 7, 1980. This is an interview conducted under the auspices of the Minnesota Historical Society and the interviewer is Sara Mason. Um , I wonder if we could start with a just little bit of your own background. JHS: OK, yes, sure. SM: Could you mention a little bit of that? JHS: I came to this country in 1954 after two years of military service in Korea following the medical school. I came to the Beth Israel School in Newark, New Jersey and stayed there for three years in residency training in pathology and then I went to the Columbia University for further training I n neuropathology for four years and I became assistant professor in neuropathology in 1961 and then in 1962, actually the, January 29, you know, I can remember because it was so cold. [Laughter] SM: Was this here in Minnesota? JHS: Minnesota, I came to Minnesota, the Twin Cities, on 29 January, 19… SM: Terrible time to come. JHS: 1962, and then I became the assistant professor in charge of the neuropathology laboratory here and I have been elevated to the rank of full professor in 1969 and as a director of the neuropathology 1aboratory. SM: You came to Minnesota then in 1962. JHS: That is correct, 1962, January 1962. So stayed on in this town. This is a town I have stayed longer than, you know, any other place in my life practically. So this is kind of hometown in a sense. [Laughter] SM: Is there anything about this town that you liked or did you… JHS: Well, I think it's, ah, I liked, you know, the work and the school and, I think, as a Page 1 of 57

town it's a very nice place to live, except harsh weather, the winter perhaps, but… SM: Socially… JHS: Socially, it's not bad, so I began to enjoy living in this town although for a couple of years when I came first and then I was kind of lonely in a sense, felt kind of isolated from the world because in New York everything is occurring, you know, the city of action and then every world occurrence, you know, you feel like is happening just next door, you know, this kind of feeling… SM: It's different from New York. JHS: Here, it's, you know, for a couple of years, kind of missed this kind of feeling of action nearby. SM: Were you married then? JHS: Yes, I was married. I was married in 1959. She's also a physician, but she stopped the, uh, doing medicine after the first baby so she has never gone back. SM: I see. Maybe we should take her name. JHS: Yes, her name is In-Choong… SM: That's two words or one? JHS: Oh, it doesn't, actually it's the same word, and then the maiden name is Kim. And, so, I have three children, one boy, 19, at Carleton College, and a girl, 16, at the Breck School here and another girl, 12, at the Chippewa Junior High. And I live in North Oaks, in northern part, live in North Oaks. SM: Did you marry before you came to the United States? JHS: No, I, uh, no, I married, actually, I came to this country in 1954 and I married in 1959, five years after. SM: She was a student here? JHS: Well, it was a resident, she was a resident and finished and was ready to go back. SM: Oh, I see. JHS: That's right. SM: But then she didn't go back. JHS: No, didn't go back. I don‘t know if she has made the right decision or wrong decision but that's happened. [Laughter]

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SM: Too late to change. JHS: Too late to change. SM: Well, maybe you could just start in talking about that early period. JHS: Well, actually, 1962 on to 1972, this was a time of change now. In the early part of the 1960, the majority of the Koreans in this town was students attending the University. There were about 40-50 student. And as a settlers, I don't know, there were only several families including me, you know, family, as a whole family regardless of the settlers or non-settlers. Actually, there were nobody was settlers then because everyone was thinking about going back. And then they came to here, they started to study, but, oh, about half a dozen people had a family, married, you see, married couples, including me. They acted as settlers in a sense, you know, and entertained students all the time. That was the sole purpose of the Korean association. At that time the Korean Association was formulated. And also, there were two groups of the, two groups, one was Korean Association and the other was Korean Student Association. SM: But they both started in early sixties… JHS: Well, they both started actually in '50s, in the '50s. But, which I don't know exactly, Mr. Lee would know very well. Which is started in early 19…, early part of 1950's and they continued along and then I came in and then I found the two groups here. But, in a sense, although Korean Association was there, the majority was the student, so that they, actually most of the activities was around Student Association, Korean Student Association, you see. SM: Same people were involved? JHS: Same people were involved and actually, you know, the Korean Student Association had most of the activities, and then the people, so called settlers, there were only a few, and they participated in these activities and tried to help these activities. SM: In the student activities… JHS: Activities, that's correct. So everything was done, the gathering and everything was done at the University facilities. SM: I see. JHS: You see, all of them done at the University facilities. SM: But there was something called the Korean Association. JHS: That's right, which supposed to include at the same time the student as well as the outsiders, you see, but because of the majority, the great majority was student, all the activities done by the student and the people outside tried to help them to do the activities. SM: I see. So both included settlers and students. Page 3 of 57

JHS: That's right. SM: But there were primarily students. JHS: Mainly student, kind of, you know, so that there were only a few, so there was no... In a sense that, for instance, like when we have a picnic, students at that time was actually rather poor because, you know, the Korean economical situation at home, and then it was very difficult to get help from home. And mainly they subsisted by the teaching assistantships, you know, and then it's the working outside in the part time jobs in the sun. So, then, there were only three or four cars as a whole and when we have a picnic, we have a picnic, these people who had a car had to travel three or four times, you see, to bring them to the picnic ground. That's the way it was. So you can see, the so-called settlers then, including me and probably the settlers of Mr. Lee and myself, were active then. And Dr. Kim, Y.B. Kim who had a car also and then a family, a wife brought from Korea. So three people always, you know, kind of acted as a chauffeur all the time. Whatever the student in the same problem, then it acted almost like a chauffeur, you know. That's all that happened. SM: So there was more of an economic struggle in the early period… JHS: Early period or so. It's not, well, they are student, though. They didn't need that much in money either, practically, so that… SM: Students always have to struggle. JHS: That's right, that's, that's, that's, that's about it. And then the settlers, we're not rich, but we could survive, you know. So, so, I think the main thing in this period, early 1960, was the few families who had a job and try to help the students in many ways. Whenever there was a gathering, we invited all of the student, you see, all of the student, and that's the way it was. SM: So the whole community would get together. JHS: Get together, always get together. There was no… no one is excluded from any, this group. There were a few, however, who were married to American girls. SM: A few students? JHS: A few students married to American girls who rarely participated in community activities for one reason or another. There were a few, oh my, I don't know many of them. There were a few. Mr. Lee may know. SM: Mr. Ahn maybe married a little later? JHS: He married early, and he, he was not particularly active then when I came but Mr. Lee was active, and Dr. Kim was active and the others was not…others who went through here active now. At that time, the chairman, or the president, Korean Association was Mr. Lee. Page 4 of 57

SM: Is this the Lee of the apron factory? JHS: That's right, Lee. He was the chairman, he was the president before there was long time but it was 1962-1963, president, OK? Then I was the president… SM: He was the first president? JHS: Oh, no, no. This was, this was, I don't know how many times in the 1950s there were also… I think he was the president for eight to nine years, I don't know, before… SM: Oh, I see. JHS: I don't know exactly. SM: And before… JHS: Yeah, before, I don't know exactly how long, but it's… That was when I came he was the president. And so, I became president 1963 to 1965, you see. And then 1965-1967, I believe, 1967, Dr. Y.B. Kim was president. And then 1967-1968, Dr. S.K. Juhn was president, and then 1968-69, there was a Dr. Han, Dr. M.H. Han. He's now in Korea, Korea, yes. SM: Oh, he returned. JHS: Yes, he was president. And then 1969-1970, I was the president again. And in 1970 to 71, Mr. Lee was president again. SM: Oh, I see. JHS: And thereafter, I don't know exactly, you know, thereafter. SM: Were there any women students at this point? JHS: There was a women student but women student were few, very few woman student, there were a few. After 1965, there were quite a few. SM: Oh… JHS: You know, but before then was very few. SM: I see. JHS: Very few. There was one person also she may know. She was a student at Macalester College, early part, I think then. She married to American man. She, I don't know the name, but she's a sister of Rock Shin(?). He, she lives in Edina and she is a classmate of my wife so that's why I know. But she came here very early, yes… She married to American gentleman and then, I don't know. She was never active then, you know, when we came, so... She may have information. That's correct, OK? Page 5 of 57

And then in 19…, this was going on and the student, number of the student was increasing gradually and then so was the people who tried to settle here. But in the later part of 1960s, and then because of the student, number of the student increasing, many of the student we entertained then went back home, so that they, then it's because of the number increase, we could not have continued the way things, you know, they ran. Its intimate relationship was gradually deteriorating. SM: Sure. JHS: And in 1967 on, there was a little bit, you know, before then was the Korean Student Association and the Korean Association was a very nice relationships, you know, helped each other. Whenever they're some activities Korean Association would like to do, the student helped. When the student have activities, then the Korean, outside, you know, the non-student helped. Was very close relationship. And in 1967 on, then it's some gradual increases in number of the student. So was, settler was not really half dozen or a little more increase so that they could not have possibly the contact, you know, then all the time, you see. There was, some communication was lost. So there was a some, because of that reason, I think 1967-8 on, there was a slight unhappiness among the students, you see, toward the settlers, in a sense, some extent. It's not, not… but some feeling developed gradually, you see. OK? This is, so that, that was one period. Now, I think that in this period, although there was a Korean Association and a Student Association, there was another group which acted very significant toward the community is bible class. SM: Uh huh, that started in 196… JHS: No, 1960. SM: 1960. JHS: 1959, I believe, 1959 or 1960 exactly. The man who started was Mr. Kim, Sam, Sam B. Kim, who is in Korea now. He's a Presbyterian, elder in Presbyterian Church. I understand he started the bible class among the student. And then, one year later, Dr. Y.B. Kim, Dr. Y.B. Kim took over, because he left, Sam left…took over, and then I joined this, the club in 1963. SM: How many were in it? JHS: There was about 10 to 25 at, you know, practically every Sunday using the UCC's… UCCF, the United Christian Campus Fellowship's, UCCF, that's what it said. SM: That was a building? JHS: This was there was building in the ag campus had one and one here too, so we met at the St. Paul Ag Campus UCCF every Sunday and then later came to the UCCF here for a while. SM: Was that on Cleveland Avenue there? Page 6 of 57

JHS: Yes, Cleveland Avenue, that's correct. I don't know whether it's still there or not, small house, it's interesting house. So, and then we moved then to, 19…67, I believe, to the campus of the UCCF, '67, '66 exactly. ‗67, I believe. And then, it's there, 1968, the church is started. SM: I see. JHS: The church is started. SM: That was w hen the Korean Christian Fellowship… JHS: That's right, the Korean Christian Fellowship started there. OK. SM: And you considered that a church. JHS: No, that's, there is a, oh whoa, there is interesting story. There is a…actually when we, you know, initiated this…it's a very, think it's base of lots of…I think we have to go into detail to demonstrate, but I don't like to bring this up to this moment. The reason is, you know, I feel that because there was lots of…only few knows this history. Many people do not know exactly how it started, how functioned, and then because of the church's split and just the rumor was, they know… SM: Yeah, right… JHS: You see, because so and so, so and so. That was not right. So that I would like to discuss this problem with the people who was engaged in that time, and then now in the different churches so that you get unbiased, right information. SM: Yes. JHS: Yes? That's what I…that's the reason why I, I would like to, I, I would like to ask you this though. I am very much interested in this history. I would like to help in any way and correct the, the, the…provide you correct information… SM: Yes, that would be very… JHS: And remove the bias as much as possible, and then, by doing this I would like to... That's the reason why I proposed the meeting and we, I will persuade them, you know, everyone, to participate in this and then offer the correct information. SM: That would be very helpful. JHS: And then also, by doing this, we'll do every way I can help you, but what I like to do is, after you write, I like to read before… SM: Oh, sure. JHS: …final publication, so that if there's any error, we can correct it… Page 7 of 57

SM: Yes. JHS: …before it's published. SM: I think that's very necessary. JHS: You agreeable? SM: Oh, very much so. JHS: Because I, I'm very much interested in the history and so on. SM: And it would be very easy to make an error. JHS: That's the reason why I, kind of, you know, this detailed information… SM: Sure, well, let's let it go. JHS: Yeah, let it go, and then I think that you would like to see… So, when this started, the church was kind of the center of community activity from 1968 to 1972. I think, 197… That was the center of the, the… This was one church, in a sense one church. It was a fellowship, but it‘s one. And it acted as community church in a sense, you see, acted as community church, so that every action, and then for instance at that time the population was somewhere 250 Koreans. You know, sometime 200 even attended the churches. SM: Really! JHS: You see? SM: Oh, I didn‘t realize… JHS: You see? SM: …it was so large. JHS: There was, yeah, originally…you… Ordinarily 125 to 150 attended, so that you can see the majority of the Korean living at that time was involved in this activity, so that there was a…yeah SM: Usually 150, you say. JHS: 125 to 100…, 120 to 150, you see, that was…attended, so… SM: So, it really was the center… JHS: Well, see, in this church, that‘s right, after I initiated the Korean school, Korean language school… Page 8 of 57

SM: Yes, this church initiated it? JHS: No, no, that time, in the church initiated…there was a, the Sunday School and the Korean Language school. SM: I see. JHS: You see, and then I was the initiator of the Korean Language School that time. Yeah, that's right, so… SM: So, there was a Korean Sunday School and a Korean Language School. JHS: Korean Language School, that's correct. Yeah. SM: I see, and that was… JHS: We tried to teach children Korean. That what, essentially to it. Korean language. SM: What year was this? JHS: This was 1969, I started Korean… Yeah, '69. SM: I see, that was started by Dr. Sung. JHS: Yeah, we… What the idea was, try to teach our children Korean language as well as offer cultural background, you know. That was initial idea. In this activity, there was… Two persons who was particularly helpful was Dr., the now Dr. Shin, let me see, initially, U.C., yeah. SM: U.C. Shin? JHS: He…yeah, and then another one is C.H. Chung. He's still here. There‘s two persons who are very active, these two are interesting fellows. One is studying the comparative, the literature of the western and eastern comparative literature of philosophy and this person is studying the, the Japanese, the literature, you know. He's at the University here. And both of them are really wonderful gentlemen. You… SM: He was studying Japanese? JHS: You'd, you'd… He was here. You'd love to talk to him. SM: Oh. JHS: He's such a good man. SM: Where did he go, back to Korea? JHS: He's now in Kentucky teaching at the University…Kentucky, one of the state Page 9 of 57

universities…teaches. He's still here. He's another one to…yeah. So, that's, that was roughly, the church is started and then church lasted until 19…, this, as a one, 197…actually, January, until January, no, 19.., not until January, actually until July, July 1972. Yeah, you see. And the church problem came up about a year and then we tried to keep the, for a year, you know, the unified. And then after the first meeting, general meeting, I left for Korea for six months on sabbatical and I returned and I found the two churches. [Laughter] SM: And that was in… JHS: I was, I was gone and then I… SM: For six months. JHS: For six months and it's all, was divided. SM: And that was in 1972. JHS: 1972, I think, July, July, another church was started by Mr. Lee , and there‘s another fellow, Cha, who is here too. He started. SM: He started another fellowship? JHS: Another church, another… Actually he's a Korean Fellowship started here. They, Korean. They started Korean Fellowship. This church actually was going, you know, changing to the church. SM: I see. JHS: So this started, so that this group tried to maintain as a Christian Korean Fellowship and the other group wanted to…the church, you know. That was the problem and then behind lots of the reasons why this happened. That took about a year and a half, you know, the discussion in the background. But it‘s…there was... But, in any case, this problem is I would like to discuss with…because I like to make it clear what happened too… SM: Sure. JHS: So that the facts will be non-biased opinions. So, actually, they…during they, this, the 1960-1972 [period] so the easy part, the bible class has one of the significant functions performed, you know, for the community. And then later that changed to the church, the Korean Fellowship, which acted as a center of the community. And then, then there was, let me see, there was 1971, another group formulated, was Minnesota Korean Medical Club. SM: Oh, that started back then. Page 10 of 57

JHS: That‘s right. SM: It was called the Minnesota Medical Club. JHS: Korean…Minnesota Korean Medical Club, Korean Medical Club, yeah, and it was organized by myself and Dr. Kim. SM: Which Kim was that? JHS: Y.B., Y.B. Kim. SM: Y.B. Kim. JHS: Y.B. Kim, yeah He‘s in New York. And then first chairman was, the president we elected was Mark Kim, Dr. Mark Kim. He was the most senior, you see. Seniority. [Laughter] That was started and then later, I became a chairman. SM: Which year were you… JHS: This was 1971 to 1972; and 1972 to 1973, I was chairman. 1972 to 1973, I was chairman. And Dr. Kim, Y.B. Kim. Oh, wait a minute. Y.B. Kim was chairman. 1973… No, he left then. SM: Oh, he left. JHS: Oh, wait a minute. No, he was chairman, that's right. 1973 to 1974, he was chairman. Dr. Y.B. Kim. And then 1974 to 1975, Dr. Juhn, Dr. Juhn…comes here. He was chairman. 1950, 1975-1976, let me see, who was the chairman 197…? I cannot, I don't remember. Let me see, let me see. 1950…Dr. Wong was chairman, that's right, Dr. Wong. He‘s, yeah. And then 1976 to '77 was…oh, one missing here. Let's write down anyway, Dr. Lee, M.Y. Lee, M.Y. Lee was chairman that last year. That was not the case. Let me see. I have to, I have to… SM: The last year was '78. JHS: '78, right, '79. No, let's put down '78 to '79. Now let me recollect something. '79 to '70…, now, 1979 to ‘70… SM: To '80? JHS: This, ‘80, ‘80, yeah, ‘80. That is Dr. T.W. Kim. Actually this should be ‘70. SM: ‗79? JHS: This was actually '80 should be, ‗80, at the present time, '80. And then this would be ‘70 to, gee '78, ‗79, that's all right. SM: Is that all right? Page 11 of 57

JHS: Yeah, that's all right. Because '79, only to '79. Now this one would be '70... Dr. Wong was, a… Would you cut this off and let me figure it out? [Recording interrupted] JHS: This purpose I can give you later on then to the, the constitution. I will give you the copy of consti… SM: Oh, yes, yes, that's perfect. JHS: That will tell you exactly, yeah, that will tell you exactly what was the purpose of it. I think initially, they, they, there were actually constitution, you know, there were also… I, the, you know, the, what do you call…this constitution, I… what do you…the…what do you call… I, I kind of purposed…what do you call this? SM: Voting for…,adoption…? JHS: No, no. Adoption was done in, yeah, a meeting, but it's…I, a, a… SM: You wrote it? JHS: Wrote it, yeah, that's right, I wrote it. I wrote it. SM: I see. Well, I wondered if it arose out of problems of immigrant doctors. JHS: No, no, no. No, no, no. That was, that was not the case. Actually, initially when the Dr., the Dr. Kim and I discussed was, actually because of the…before, we wanted to organize this but we did not to do, you know, did not organize is the fact that the smoke immunity. If you have the kind of interest group is built, you know, there is lots of interest groups , then it is, it is likely to cause a schism, or the socio...you know, kind of the small society so that if you have lots of clubs, then it's likely to be… SM: More factionalized… JHS: That's it, factions, so that try to prevent these factions. That's the reason why this was needed before, but it's try not to. SM: I see, I see. JHS: You know. They do that. But the momentum came because of the church problem which will eventually divide the society which we foresaw, you see. SM: Oh, you did foresee this? JHS: Oh yes, foresaw this, yes, foresaw this because of the, the church was the center of the community action and I know that when this happens in other communities, naturally this society, community will be split. And it's a bit uncomfortable situation may arise, and we foresaw this. This is the reason why I think it would be unwise among the physicians, should not have happen, you know. That's the reason why, well, maybe this is the time we Page 12 of 57

should organize the group so that we should keep the, what do you call, you know, fellowship still maintains rather than kind of go through this trouble. So that's the reason why this was organized so that they... There was three purpose in a sense. One was a friendship, you know, fellowship. And the second was the promote our interests in profession, you know. And the third was the fulfillment of the responsibility as a physician toward the community. You see? That was the three main purpose which the constitution will say. So, the first purpose was, that time, priority was fellowship to keep the, keep the physicians united, not to… SM: To keep the physicians united? JHS: yeah, physicians as a group, you know, because society's going to be split, there will be, you know, there will be some conflict which was foresaw because of the church was going through, this was December, December 1971… SM: Oh, yes, that was when all that was happening. JHS: …is happening. At that time, there was organized, you see. So that there was a certain, certain environment or factors to organize this. Yeah. Well, these things, I think it's important now so that I think if we see this, the community development, you know, in the historical prospective, it's very interesting, you know, although we all acted as actor in the play, play. Some may have acted more than the others but, in a sense, the history was made by all the people went through here, you see. So that I think that's a good part and then I think it's…you'll find lots of interesting human relations, perhaps, I think…and also, you know, how this, the, this community develops just like others and then it divided and then again it is effort to unite again and then still again it's divided by small groups and then try to do, you know, effort to make united again. This kind of what was constant so that I think these things which you, I would like to discuss with others and then give you rather complete and correct information which makes… I think it's very interesting. We are not worrying about any, you know. SM: So the medical organization was one of these attempts to reunite… JHS: That's right. SM: …the community. JHS: Well, at least the medical group. SM: At least it was the second time. JHS: Yeah, and also, well, there was…another attempt was, perhaps, the Korean Language School, Korean Institute now. SM: Oh, when did that… JHS: Now then, you see, when the church divided, the church is divided and then when, after I came back, July, there were the two churches, you see. And then I didn't attend any of them. I didn't want to attend, you see. I was not happy about it, but the fact is fact, I Page 13 of 57

couldn't do too much, already divided, you see. SM: Did quite a few stop attending any of them then? JHS: Well, initially, initially, some stopped attending, some continued to attend but it's… SM: Then they reorganized somewhat under [unclear]. JHS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, yes. The problem is, for me, this split group actually represented my a, the, you know… SM: The one that you were sympathetic… JHS: Sympathetic about the continuing as a fellowship and the united and then act as a center of the community and my, the reason was, I think I saw this as a church can function and then also contribute great deal to the development of the community although the Christianity is not at all our entire culture. Yet, they, I think, in a sense, in Korean, real Christians were maybe 10-15% of them actually, you see. Because of this reason, I think until, my idea was until they large enough to, you know, large enough so that it's difficult to maintain hold in one place, then it's, you know, naturally it‘s, physically it‘s impossible, then it‘s be separated. But before then, I think we should be united and then have one church and one center and then, if it's necessary later on when the population increases that geographically by necessity can be… SM: Right. JHS: …you know, couple or some places. But because of this reason, I kind of… This, these are the fellows who, you know, representing that, and I had a hard time to, not to attend here, you see. But it's, I... The fact was, fact was I didn't like it because it was this kind of, the split which I didn't agree. And then finally I, they asked me to join many times, but I didn't join yet. I joined them to organize Korean Language School again here. SM: I see. JHS: So we had two Korean Language School, one with the other church, one with this one, you see. So because of children coming and then we had to organize something. So I… SM: So you organized the language school for the fellowship. JHS: That's right. Fellowship here and then as well as the other one. SM: And then the old one. JHS: Old one, and the old one was continuing and we split here and then organized again here, you see. SM: I see. Page 14 of 57

JHS: So there were two. And then later, the outsiders, you see…it's silly, why don't we organize Korean, the school again outside of the church so the people can attend, attend it? SM: That's when the Korean Institute started. JHS: That's right. That's the way it started. SM: And that was in 19… JHS: That was 1970…, I believe 1974, 1974 probably, if I'm not mistaken. This date which we come, will come more definitely when we get together. You see, that's the reason why I… SM: Well, this is really helpful in giving me this periodization. JHS: That's right. SM: Well, so then, would you consider Mr. Chung and Mr. Lee's efforts then another of these attempts to unify the community? JHS: No, that was not the case, I, a, whoa! SM: (?)…gathered together one segment. JHS: Well, because of, I think that time, they had a church because of many people left from the church when the church's problem came up, it's almost half of them didn't like it, half of them liked it, so naturally half of them didn't participate, so they tried to put them, you know, back together and then have another one, you see… I don't think it's... You should ask Mr. Lee. SM: This is the same Mr. Lee at the apron factory? JHS: Yeah, (chuckle), yeah, think you should ask him because I don't know the circumstances when they organized because I was in Korea. SM: I see. Oh, yes. JHS: You see, I was in Korea and then I didn't know what it's all about then. If I were here, I would be able, I would have been perhaps different or what I have done, I don't know, but it's, I think that time, my feeling was, was not, my personal feeling was, you know, was unhappy. SM: Uh huh, and it was already accomplished. JHS: Accomplished already. It's difficult because if we did not have, I was...my thinking was if we did not organize, still there's a chance that we can go back, you see, but it's, once it's organized, then it's difficult, you know. It's very difficult to prevent the dividing. It is more difficult to put them together when once they are separated, you see.

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SM: Yeah, right. JHS: This is the... That was the reason why. But it's...I think it's, you know, the community grows and then I think that this is a natural course usually takes, takes a course so that, I think, sooner or later, you know, even if there were no, I mean, this kind of conflict occurred, might would have, had the same kind of things later on. So I don't think... SM: At this point, had the community, the nature of the community begun to change? JHS: That's right. 19..., what I'm saying is 1972 on is complete to on the, the, the...then it's the majority of the community here, the settlers becoming the majority rather than students. SM: Ah, after 1972. JHS: You see? Roughly that period. And then, that period... Now, the...essential, the dividing line was started actually 1970 after Aquatennial. Aquatennial, you see. Aquatennial, the participation was everybody's real effort, and this was, and then after this, gradually settlers increased and the, you know. SM: Were blue collar coming then? JHS: Oh, later. I think somewhat later about 1970...well, ‗70...somewhere ‗73.
[End of side]

JHS: ‗72 on is Dr. Park, Dr. Park you spoke to. And then, and then... SM: ...only very briefly because he wanted to organize… JHS: That's right, and then, then Dr., the S.J., S.J. Lee, and then another one is B.Y. Lee, B.Y. Lee, and J.M. Lee... the, the Suh. SM: That's pronounced "so"? JHS: "So‖, yes. You know, I forgot one person here, very important person in the early sixties, person is another one who is in charge, in leader of the, one of the Catholic Church here. SM: What did we do with that list? JHS: 1960s...here, oh here. Here, this part here, they Mr., Mr., the, oh, let's see, he's Shin, Mr. Shin, S-H-I-N, Mr. Shin, let me see, probably Shin is spelled E-E-N, Mr. Sheen. His first name was, oh, D., D. as, D. as in...yeah. He's now at the present time here and then he's one of the leader of the Catholic Church here, Korean, you see. SM: He was an early leader of the...

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JHS: Yes, that's right. He was participating, he was not leader but student, but he was very active. SM: Wasn't that with the fellowship, the Catholics came as part of that? JHS: Uh, that was later. SM: Later. JHS: This was later. SM: Oh, earlier there was a separate Catholic... JHS: No, no, no, there was no. SM: I see. JHS: Earlier, the later, after the, even the, the other one, two separated afterward… SM: Then the Catholic, oh... JHS: Yeah, that was later. SM: After the split. JHS: Yeah, after the split. Sometime after the split actually, some time, I don't know, year or two after the split. SM: Oh JHS: Year or two after the split. And then there, here comes the Dr. Hong, Dr. Mike Hong, he's not here. Mike Hong, H-O-N-G, Hong. He's in Korea now. And that's where the Catholic group started here. And there was another person who's now here is Mr., Mr., Mr. C., C.J. Lee, yeah. He's here now. And this, I think this too, you know, this group if you ask... There's two of them. They will know all the history. SM: I see. JHS: You see. SM: But only Mr. Sheen was Catholic? JHS: No, all, all, all... SM: Oh, they all three were. JHS: Three were Catholic, you see. The Catholic Church and these three are probably organizers.

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SM: Ah ha. JHS: But you may ask the details, yeah. So, so then, then it's a, this, they, then this church was, you know, was split church, was Mr. Lee and Mr. Cha, but there are others, Dr. Song and then myself and Y.B. Kim, Dr. Kim, and oh, a group and then the, the, later on. This one, let's not, let's forget about that one. It's...we'll get to all the informations. SM: You know, one thing that would be very interesting, I think, is if you would give us some idea of what happened at the fellowship meetings and how the culture and religion went together. JHS: Yes, I, will, I will, I will go in to that. We, I, certainly. There's lots of, you know, the, of course, you see, that's... I, I will be happy to talk my opinion but it's, I like to give my opinion in the presence of others. SM: Sure. JHS: So that make sure that I'm not, I'm not, you know. Even if I'm biased but in the presence of others, I will be happy to do that. I'm not, I'm very outspoken so that I don't… (Laughter) SM: But you think they will discuss that? JHS: Yes, I think, I think... I would like them to discuss it, because, you know, the reason is we are, you know, we are living in the, you know, course of the history. We may perform right or wrong but I think we...if we have made a mistake, we learn through our mistakes, and then I think if this past, we should remember so that we do not forget, you know, do not make another mistake. That's the reason why I like to present this in the presence of others and discuss frankly. We don't have to worry about... SM: That could be quite an exciting subject. JHS: I think that would be, I think, so that, I think it would be very, you know, can be done, nice ways, but it's one, one thing that I would like to emphasize again that I would like, you know, we may organize a group of people, you know, people so that help you, for instance, like certain period and certain people organized and certain group and certain part organized and certain church and this kind of things so that will help you all the facts, the correct facts, but it's a, you know, I would like to, you know, ask you that before...find out... SM: I would like very much to check it out. JHS: Check out and then so that… SM: We don't want errors either. JHS: Yeah, I know, yeah, I know, I'm sure. That way I think will be very... SM: I think that would be very helpful. JHS: Now I think we ask these people whom would be the one who'd know all the Page 18 of 57

activities. I know roughly. I know them all, but it's the individual involved, I don't know. But it's what's going on, I know. But it's individual, I know, I don't know. Now I can give you my opinion as to what's happening and so on, but it's... I will give you my opinion in the presence of others. SM: Sure, I think that's probably a good way to do it. JHS: That's right. SM: You get some back and forth. JHS: That's right, that's right. That's the way we can, if there's any doubt in people's mind as to the, my behavior, then they will understand and I will like to, you know. I think this is a much better way of... SM: Yes, well, this is very helpful to get this information on the early period which you certainly know as well as anyone. JHS: Yeah, think it's, that's right, most of the...particularly this, the ten year period, was very much involved and then, the reason I was involved... There are several reasons, you know, they... I had a personal feeling that, you know, everybody has some one time or another. I came here to study and then studied, accomplished a certain, you know, attained the skills and so on, so that to be…kind of staying in this country was kind of guilty, you know, guilty feeling which see, some kind of guilt, guilt complex develops because, you know, the feeling that the, I will, I, not because I'm a big man, but it's, I, you know, with the skill accomp...you know, attained, and it's needed more in Korea than in this country and then it's very difficult to find the, the, actually, what do you call the, the purpose of staying in this country, you see, justifying the purpose of staying in this country. There's some extent of this kind of feeling have had, and yet I wanted to develop myself in this, my professional career. It's difficult to promote in Korea although you can be a teacher. And because of this reason, I felt that maybe I can devote myself to, you know, developing the Korean community here, you see, that's the reason why I had a, the, you know, sense of, kind of self-imposed responsibility or duty, you see. That's the reason why I was so very much kind of interested in seeing that this community develops correctly if I can be a part of it, I would not hesitate to sacrifice myself in a sense, you know, in these activities. That's the reason why I devoted a great deal, no question about it. SM: Well, that helps to explain a little bit the great devotion that… JHS: Yes, yes, yes. We had a, I think, a detail... And fortunately I had a great friend, you know, the Dr. Y.B. Kim. He was, he, kind of, he and I were really, you know, understood each other very well and then had a similar kind of, you know, thinking, you know, similar kind of thinking, and so on. It was... I think that friendship made a, even, you know, this kind of effort, made it easier, so each... For instance, I was not Christian at all, yet I was very actively participating in Bible class, you know, as well as the church, which was not at all religious at the beginning, you see, not at all, because I didn't ever attend a church, yet I, you know, you get lots of history that because I was not Christian yet actively participating in the church activities and there is lots of reason for it. And so, you know, so I think these things... Page 19 of 57

SM: Well, it seems to me that all the pastors I've talked to have been very concerned about this question whether the... JHS: No, I think the pastors, you see, pastors, you know, I think that the problem here, you see. SM: They're overly concerned about it. JHS: Overly concerned because there was a... I'm not concerned about it because anything I did certainly, you know, it's, I did not do anything on my benefit, you know, any personal the gain. SM: Oh, right. JHS: You see, never did anything in my personal gains and then I told you the purpose which I, you know, actively participated, so that, so that anything I did, even made a mistake, I don't think I be ashamed of it. SM: No, I don't either. JHS: So that… SM: I've, I've been wondering why they're so... JHS: Concerned.... SM: …concerned and I think there might be a very conservative theological... JHS: No, I don't think that's anything to do with it. SM: You don't think so? JHS: I think so, I think, I don‘t think, in my opinion that‘s not the case. SM: The idea that faith comes first rather than works. JHS: Well, that was their…their dogma, you see. There's nothing, nothing about the, the Korean Christian Fellowship is nothing different from...as well as in my, in my, the, the view and then I participated now fifteen years and there is no change, nothing different from Christian Fellowship to church. I don‘t see anything is different from the activities practically. I see nothing different, nothing different whatsoever. And then, try to see that this is matter of faith or matter of religious difference, I don't see it. SM: Well, that‘s what interests me too, that while the ministers express this concern, they are equally concerned with the social needs of the community and very much involved in the... JHS: Yeah, I don‘t see, I don‘t see, because, you see, when this organized, this problem Page 20 of 57

came up and that's the reason why I tell you all this, why this organized and in what way organized, what was the zeal and then how try to accomplish zeal and why we failed, you know. We can tell you that, you see, because, as well as the, their concerns, I can hardly understand. The reason is I found in fifteen years, I found no difference. SM: Uh huh. JHS: No difference. And then even now I'm more close to the church than used to be and astute as I find no difference. And, so, only difference was, I think there was some human factors here, you see, and then also I think human factors and financial and then the, the social as well as, you know, but I think religious, the, the differences, I think are minimal, nothing there. SM: So it was mainly the pastors that were interested in establishing the church rather than a fellowship. JHS: Well, because that was their… I think in the kind of the stable gain as well as kind of dogma, in a sense. I don't see... SM: Sorry, what was that? JHS: Dogma, you know, religious dogma and then so, they are accustomed to that kind of system rather than this kind of system. This is new to them. That's all difference is. SM: Right. JHS: You see, that's all difference is actually. They are accustomed to the more conservative, fundamentalistic approach to religion in Korea and then that's what it was rather than, this is a now the new and the community oriented church which is new to them, you see. I think this is the reason why they feel that this is a social club, not a real church, but what is a church anyway? It's a... SM: It certainly is concerned with the social... JHS: That's the thing, because if the church... I think this is the main problem which we feel that nowadays. They talk about lots of the, you know, the cult problem, this problem, that problem, social problem. What, essential too is church has failed function their own responsibility. That's all to it. SM: Right. JHS: Because this is the reason why I think it's, I, as well, as well as I can see that I think the church nowadays has failed their old function according to the society we live in. We cannot have the church in middle centuries or, you know... This is different story so that I think that what, what was very unfamiliar and that's what made them difficult, you see. And then that's made, their, you know, their approach made us difficult, so that was the problem here. SM: Well, first they wanted to make it a church. Then they wanted to have a Page 21 of 57

denominational affiliation. JHS: Well, this is a simple, there's nothing different. That's what I'm saying, it's a, well, we can tell you the development, yeah, development is what I'm saying so there's no difference whatsoever in the church activities, in the, the method by which they, they, you know, runs. There's nothing different. I find nothing different whatsoever. And then I don't find even between the, between these ministers, they're all same. It's nothing different practically. I don't see any difference in the… I , I met the Baptist minister. I met the Methodist minister. We had a Methodist minister. And then Presbyterian minister and then I find no difference. SM: Yes, they are very similar. JHS: Certainly, in a sense, it's same. I don't see any difference. They say the same thing exactly. They almost, you know, they try to run the church in same way. There's nothing different. So that's a problem comes up. I think it's a, more, there is more social and human factors involved rather than, you know, and then also personal, you know. The a, I think they're generally... What I feel is that whenever they... I believe that the history is not made by the one person, made by the everybody and there's always in the play, somebody tried to think that he can make the history, you see, regardless, it's not so hard, and these people is the one which cause the trouble. SM: [Laughter] Yes. JHS: You see. That's what happens in the world, you know. SM: Yes, by sort of dominating. JHS: Dominating so that he can change... I think that's what happens. Many dictators have the kind of paranoid, you know, thinking, idea that he's going to change the history of world or change the, the history of the country, he's the one building the history of the country and this, this what happens all the time. And we had a, you know, country the same way. It really is, you know, same way, you know, France, Germany, everybody. Every, every, every part of the country has same way, and this is, is small scale, I think, the community is the same, I think. SM: So the church reflects the community. JHS: Church reflect the community, and I think that's what… SM: Maybe you didn't want to talk much about the blue collar but I was kind of interested... JHS: Well, that's a, you see, this was after '72 which I was already, I was, I was out of, you know, I was kind of tired and then after ten years of things and then I tried to live a little more quiet life an d that's the reason why I don't have much contact at all... SM: I see. Page 22 of 57

JHS: ...Practically, so that I don't know. SM: But you did continue with the community church or...? JHS: Well, community church, they, I, we have the, you know, that church that... SM: Yeah. JHS: Yeah, that church where I continued to...and the, our church is, group is a little more homogeneous than other groups so that I don't know. I had very little contact with the, you know...our church is more or less homogeneous group and a, and a, who had been, who had been in this country for longer period of time and they are mostly, you know, kind of, very much same, you know, so that we have no such problems. Also it was... SM: Blue collar are going more to the two Methodist churches. JHS: I don't know exactly. Methodist church, I don't know, Methodist church, there is one. Another Methodist church, I don't know. I have never been there and I don't know what's happening. SM: I guess they... Pastor Paik says about 50% are blue collar but about 75%... JHS: I don't know. I was told recently there's seven people only, I don't know, 50 percent of seven people? [Laughter] I don't know what it's all about. SM: I thought they had 50 members but maybe they... JHS: I'm not sure. I think you better, you better, I think that you better get the information correctly from someone. I don't know who would be the one to get, but I think you should get it from someone who... SM: I talked to Reverend Paik but there probably are some other people... JHS: Yeah, who'd offer you more correct, correct… I think, you see, this is the reason why this kind of history, it's... SM: It's very tricky. JHS: Because of biased and try to exaggerate things. I don't, don't think... SM: Right. It certainly shouldn't depend on one point of view. JHS: That's right, one point of view or one person or... SM: Yes, to safeguard everyone... JHS: Yes, that's right, so that we'll give you this information, small, correct, and then, Page 23 of 57

small. SM: Well, I'll really look forward to see what comes out then. JHS: Ok, sure, sure. SM: Is someone going to translate it? JHS: Yeah, I'll, we'll be happy to do that. And then also, I'm sure it's many ways I like to see that you write good... SM: Oh, yes! JHS: ... you know, the correct one. I don't, don't mind... SM: I think so too. JHS: I don't mind, you know, the criticism or I don't mind the things but it's correct, factual. SM: Accurate. JHS: Yeah, accurate informations from which you can do anything. SM: Sure. I, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I hope you'll look over the... JHS: Ok. SM: ... transcripts before we get to the... JHS: Yes. SM: ...or the draft... JHS: Yes, I think... SM: ...before we get to the final. JHS: You will find a very interesting aspect. I think this, they, lots of the cultural background from which we, you know, appears in this a, the community development. SM: Yes. JHS: Yeah, and then also, I think in the future, you see, there is lots of, the... I think it's, can, things can be done, although, it is true, it's very difficult but it's... Many people get together and then try to help each other, in a sense, the, what do you call, the directions, you know, some way a good way to develop and then, certainly not one person but it's a group of people and then group effort. If we can leave this too, then I think this can be done.

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SM: Yes. Maybe you would want to just touch on how this community differs from, say West coast, larger community. JHS: Larger community is simply reason is, they, larger, you see... This community started as a homogeneous group, don't you see? SM: Yes. JHS: As a student and a faculty and all the people they came here to study and they are educated in this country and then that's the reason why this is a homogeneous group, you see? SM: Yes. JHS: And then, before, before this kind of the, all the factions, you know, factionalism and these things came into the play, before that kind, we, we have built our tradition in this community, you see, in a sense, our own tradition is built, built in, you see. That's made somewhat different from the other areas where they did not have tradition built in and then came in as a group and then they started, you see, so that was, in a sense, somewhat different. SM: So they came in more quickly in the larger... JHS: Larger, that's right, larger and then actually, here you started as a community, small community and then knew each other like a small town. SM: Right. JHS: Right? SM: More harmonious. JHS: More, yeah, harmonious group and then this tradition is built and then once tradition is built and it's, it's difficult to break it, I think a certain degree. So, in a sense, I feel that the tradition built in here was good one, you see, good one. But in other, larger areas, what happened is just like organization before even any homogeneous, the harmonious group, you see, the tradition developed. SM: Right. JHS: I think that's was the, the difference, yeah. SM: Yeah, so there would naturally be more problems. JHS: Yeah, so that the, our, the community represent, the small community which is started as a small group and gradually enlarged, you see. That's what we represent. But we cannot represent, let's say, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Washington. That's, we cannot do that because they are different, entire different.

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SM: Right. JHS: You see? SM: Well, is there anything about the Midwest or Minnesota that shapes this a little bit? JHS: No, well, I don't know, because you see, many things happening in St. Louis, for instance, two, three years happening here and three, two, three years later happening in the, the, the Wisconsin, Madison, Wisconsin. So that certain things here, certain things, what I'm saying is, certain things is very common to all these small communities. And Minnesota, only Minnesota is, perhaps different, is the fact this Minnesota, University of Minnesota, the, you know, they had the closer relation with one of the university in Seoul, so naturally, university... Because of this reason there lots of the Korean, the professors and student went through this area, you see, and then it's, I think many of them are in, really, now it's a kind of center of this, you know, central figures in Korea. Many of the, you see, many of the a, it's not the high political, you know, place but it's, I think the, many, the... SM: In the medical field? JHS: Technocrat, kind of technocrat class, lots of the central figures, you see? SM: Would that include medical? JHS: Medical as well as, you see, medical as well as... I think that's, these people are kind the, in a sense, leaders in, you know, some extent, and came through here and then they were here and then they were very intelligent people and then I think that's made difference, perhaps. SM: Perhaps there was more influence in Korea. JHS: Yeah, that's right. SM: Well, I wondered if that group when it came here in the 1954... JHS: Fifties, yeah. SM: Or whatever. Did they interact with the immigrant….very much? JHS: Oh, don't know. No, there was the communi...very little, think very little. I think you should ask Mr. Lee how much interaction was there. Now in 1962 to 1972 there, there was very little interaction, I think interaction with other communities through the Aquatennial, 1970, you know, Aquatennial, the activities. This was the first time the Korean community acted, interacted with the American community, as a community group. SM: Oh, I see. JHS: You see? That was the first time. Yeah, that was the first time. Page 26 of 57

SM: So before that, there wasn't much... JHS: There wasn't much interaction because there was only student, majority of them were student, you see. SM: So there might have been interaction at the University. JHS: At the University, that's right, among the student and very few settlers and they're not, only few individuals so that it's mainly through the, this academic community. I think that's one thing, another fact that the so-called, the, the people who led the, this community were, in a sense, all, majority of them, it's a, the SM: Were... JHS: Faculty, yeah. SM: Yes. JHS: Yes. (Laughter) SM: Yes, so the main interaction was at the University. JHS: It was, that's right, that was University, you see. I think that made a dif…a little bit different. And also, yeah, probably people are more idealistic, in a sense, because of they related to the University, perhaps, but it's a what... SM: Did the Korean students who were here always interact with the other students quite a bit or did they stick together? JHS: Well, they a, you know, generally, I think they, I don't know how other student, compared to the other, you know, students from the other countries, how much they stick together but I think as a Oriental in general that's, you know, they tend to stick together, that's, that's a... Among the a, well, Korean, I don't know, it's a because smaller the group, this, they stick together more, you see. That's, that's what happens, you know. So I think, in a sense, Korean was a very small group so that perhaps from outsiders he look like they stick together more than other groups, perhaps, because the smallness, perhaps. SM: I think the Chinese stuck together pretty much too, it sounds like. JHS: Yeah, that's right. They do too, yeah, they do, Chinese too, and Japanese too, but it's a... SM: But they must interact some. JHS: Yeah, well, I think interact some, I'm sure. SM: You think it was the small size that… Page 27 of 57

JHS: Size that made the... SM: …largely made the difference. JHS: Difference, yeah. SM: What about, I don't know if there ever was much discrimination in this late period, but was there less in Minnesota than on the west coast? JHS: Oh, I felt that's, that's true, that's true. I think, although I, I don't have any very close contact with the others and I lived practically within the University, you know. Universities are very liberal in most places so that, I don‘t know whether that was made a... But I felt pretty liberal here. It‘s a, it‘s a, didn‘t have any particularly over, overly, you know, discriminating here then, so that a, I don‘t know. SM: Was there any at the University? JHS: I don‘t... My, personally have no, no particular, particular, no particular instance of anything it's, you know, as a specific, I don‘t have any. But it‘s, you know, as a small group and then as a, you know, different kind of background and particularly we have language problem, you know, occasionally you feel, kind of feeling alien to this culture. This kind of feeling is nothing. SM: Problems of underemployment must have been pretty real in that… JHS: Underemployment? SM: If you couldn‘t get a job in your own field and training. JHS: That‘s right, that's right. SM: That‘s the present problem, I guess. JHS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SM: If you're a teacher in Korea you can‘t transfer that so easily. JHS: That's right, that‘s... but it‘s a, that time. Well, I was trained here so that I didn‘t have any problem. SM: Did most of the doctors that have stayed had their training here? JHS: Yes, most of them, all of them. All of them have practically... SM: All of them. JHS: All of them has training here and then got a job, yeah, all of them. Page 28 of 57

SM: That would be pretty hard to transfer or... JHS: No, no, no. Actually you, you come here, no, you come here, you have to take a license. You have to get the training, post-graduate training so you must have the training and it doesn't automatically transfer so that you cannot function as a physician unless you get the training, so that's... SM: Well, say you'd gone to medical school in Korea and then you did a residency here or something. Would that work out? JHS: Yeah, generally you take a, the license or exam and you become a physician. SM: So you have to have at least part of your training here. JHS: That's right, that's right, part of training. So no one came from Korea and then practice, you see, can't do that. SM: Uh huh, you can't do that. JHS: Yeah, so you have to have a training. SM: Are there nurses that come over too? JHS: There are nurses. There are not too many, not too many. There are nurses but it's, I don't know in detail again. It's, this happened, somewhere 1975 after or 6 after, you know, after... SM: Oh, here… JHS: In 19...yeah, so that I don't know many of them. SM: But that isn't a big group? JHS: No, no, not as a group, not as a group. Now presently there are many groups, you know, the doctors group and then this group and that group and I think you may ask a, presently… There lots of groups beside the churches, you know. SM: Right, there's the generational groups and... JHS: Yes, some kind of groups. And I, I, I was told that some groups and this groups and that groups, but it's, I don't know anyone that… SM: Somebody told me there were even some blue collar groups up around... JHS: Well, I think that‘s what I was told too. But it‘s, I don‘t know exactly who are they and then were they…

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SM: It's getting to be complex. JHS: Yeah, because now it's a, you know, large number and particularly I'm not particularly active in this, so that I don't k now exactly what… SM: Yeah, I see. Well, then there are those two groups that are just on the periphery of… JHS: At the present? Yeah, at the present still, you see, this, I think makes a difference. Center of the, you know, the activity, it's surrounding the still university and the professionals, you see, I think that makes great difference... SM: Still the leaders. JHS: Yeah, still I think that makes some difference from other regions perhaps. SM: Uh huh. That would be... JHS: Because, yeah, still... SM: Are they outnumbered in actual numbers by any… JHS: Numbers, by numbers, I think generally. Now the newcomers, in a sense of the people who came last five years, would be probably larger. SM: Uh huh, but the professionals are still the leaders. JHS: Still, think it maintains to certain degree, yeah. SM: Well, thank you very much... JHS: Ok, that's a... SM: …for giving so much time to this. JHS: …well, that's a fine. I will be happy to... SM: …very helpful. JHS: We are supposed to meet with the, I don't know how many will come, quite a few fellows who'll be coming, and we try to see that the, you know, we should put to you this study, you know, correct prospect, you know. SM: That would be very... ( End of first interview )

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(Second interview) JHS: Actually, the bible study group was started (I don't know the exact time, but it's 1959) by Sam D. Kim, who was actually an elder in the church in Korea, who was also administrator of one of the missionary hospitals in Korea - Taegue, Korea, I believe, at the hospital called Dong San. SM: Was that a denominational [hospital]? JHS: I believe a Presbyterian hospital; in English it's probably called a Presbyterian hospital. I don't know exactly when that developed; but in any case this was American missionary hospital, and he was an administrator. He came here to learn hospital administration, to U of M. He's a very devoted Christian, you see, and was, a very intelligent man, and he was very respectable - respected by people. SM: He was a leader? JHS: He started, apparently, before I came, under Dr. Y.B. Kim, who participated in it. This Dr. [Sam B.] Kim came here as a graduate student in microbiology, and Dr. [Y.B.] Kim is also a very devoted Christian. SM: So they must have done the same work. JHS: That‘s right. They studied - and then, this bible class; I'm sure most of the people attending were Christians, originally, although there might have been non-Christians included - but usually Christians who had a Christian background, and then attended this. SM: Were there any that didn‘t attend? JHS : Oh, there were lots of them who did not. In Korea, about ten percent of population is Christian, maybe less actually. Many are probably churchgoers. In Korea, people who attend the church can be considered as Christian, as do not attend. Also, Christianity is not our own culture, you know. In Korea Confucianism is kind of…regardless of whether you are a Buddhist or Christian, the philosophy of life is based on the Confucianism, and then the Buddhism is there, but it's not actively involving the society. There are more Buddhists than Christians, perhaps, but they are not particularly active, in the sense… SM: It's not a church…institutional. JHS: That‘s right. So this is the reason why people came here; I don‘t know what percentage of them had the Christian background. For instance, like myself…never had a Christian background, although I went to mission school (had a very little). My background is Confucianism and Buddhism; it's not Christianity. That was going on, and then after, [Y.B.] Kim apparently left Dr. Kim to run [it]; I don't know why this happened…he was busy, or something else. Anyway, when I came here Dr. Kim was in charge of it. Probably he could have left for Korea for a while, or went to some place for a while, and that's the reason why he left Dr. Kim to run the bible class, I think. When I Page 31 of 57

came here Dr. Kim was in charge, and then it was Dr. Kim who insisted that I should attend, you see, because we became good friends. Then it's…I should attend; and I always reject it, naturally I didn't care about it. Then about a year later, we became so close, friends, and I gradually tried to help him. That's the reason why I also participated in it, but it's not being continued too much today – the Christian discussions. But I think it's offered, certainly, friendship, and fellowship, mainly. Non-Christians attending, and then that drew more non-Christians, you see. It was a good group, it was actually a very interesting group, all kinds of fellowships…and also gave a service, in a sense, to the other non-Christians who do not participate: whenever something happens, then we try to help. This was going on until 1967, and then all of a sudden there were five ministers up here in the Twin Cities. The reason was, the minister Daniel Kim came, I believe, some tine in 1966 or 1965 - sometime - to teach at one of the seminary schools here. Central Baptist? Church-related, I don't know the exact name of it. He came as a teacher, but we didn't know until 1967. He brought five graduate students, who are ministers in Korea. You see? So these five people, they participated in this bible class. SM: He brought them to the Twin Cities? JHS: To his seminary school, to study there. These are the five ministers; although they were students at that time, they participated in the bible class. Gradually the number grew, and they thought perhaps, rather than having bible class… They recommended that we should have a church. This idea of having a church was in discussion before even then, but [they were] reluctant to proceed. The reason was that the Korean churches in various other locations sometimes bring the difficult problems, namely that when the church is built, then the insistence of denominations, and then the church is split, and it's this kind of problem. We saw that. We tried not to. We knew this was going to happen, so we have to be very careful not to have this kind of problem in this town, became after all, the population is small. Nevertheless, we organized a committee to think about having a church. A committee was organized to study the feasibility of having a church, in the bible class. SM: What were the arguments for a church, as opposed to a bible study class? JHS: There was no argument then. The only reason there was reluctance is we had the organization; one is a Korean association, and if we have a church within a small group…if you have another group, naturally there is a kind of…not really a faction, but non-church goers feel kind of alienated. This kind of feeling…tried not to have this kind of feeling, because of the small community, and tried to keep the unity. SM: I guess what I meant was, why did Reverend Kim think it would be better to have a church than a bible study class? JHS: Oh. I don't know. This is just like any commander…the trained commander would like to have…[laughs]. That's their profession, I suppose. SM: Probably a minister would press for that. JHS: Yes. Ministers recommended that, but we were thinking [about it already], as a Page 32 of 57

natural course of the development of the bible class would be the church…and then, Christians thinking. But it was reluctant. Dr. Kim and I had a discussion - a great deal about this kind of problem; but nevertheless we organized the study committee. Four people was elected: Dr. Kim was one, and then myself, and there was Dr. Juhn, and another one, Mr. Y.J. Kim (he soon left for Arizona). There were several discussions about the possibility of having a church, and so on, but eventually we realized that we would like to have a church. But as to when… It has never been solved. Then, as this was going on, a group of people outside of the bible class (namely the people who did not particularly…well, some people participated, some didn't) felt as long as we are going to have a church, we should have the church to include all the people. The outside group (there was quite a few at that time) get together, and [they felt] we should discuss, all together. So we discussed. [Tape interrupted] We got together one evening, with the five ministers; Daniel Kim was there, and the four others. There were others, the bible class members and non-members, all together about twenty or twenty-five (I don't know the exact number). We got together and discussed this - we should have a church. There was lots of discussion; however, there emerged… three principal ideals appeared. One, the church should be based on the bible (that's natural) - the Christian bible. Secondly, we should have one church in this town, until such time that the congregation is too big to be held in one place. We emphasized this unity. Then third was that to keep this unity we have to have the church interdenominational - nondenominational. Now, this everybody agreed [to], because of these three principles. Then Daniel Kim proposed that…what he said was, "This cannot be a church.‖ SM: He was a real purist. JHS: That's right. He's a fundamentalist. ―This cannot be a church, because this includes Christians as well as non-Christians." He proposed that to name the church, it should be a fellowship rather than a church, because this cannot be a church; and he felt that what we were having, then, was a Korean Christian fellowship, rather than a church. So that was okay. SM: Churches…non-Christians… JHS: This was the problem. In a sense, the majority of the people who are here, are non-Christians, or church-goers rather than Christians. That included some people who never even attended a church, but attended [the bible study class]. SM: More would tend to attend here, since it functioned as a social organization. JHS: That's the reason why. Reverend Daniel Kim felt this is not a church, and should be a fellowship, so that's the reason why we organized according to his recommendation that this should be a Korean Christian fellowship. That was acceptable to everybody, because of these three goals, which, they agreed upon. So that's the reason why they started Korean Christian Fellowship, initially. Then after this Korean Christian Page 33 of 57

Fellowship was organized, the first meeting (I have the letter the minister sent out; it would be interesting to translate, and then put into the record. It was a good letter [from Daniel Kim], to invite everybody to attend)… SM: That's an historic document. JHS: That's right. I don' t have it personally, but in our church…it should be there. Also all the records for three or four years before the split occurred…all the everyday service brochures. Dr. Kim kept it, and then handed it to me, to keep it in the church. SM: It's good that all those records have been kept. JHS: There was another record, which was lost; I don't know who has it. That would have been even better; all the names are there, all kinds of things. Unfortunately, I don't know who has it, really. Somebody must have it. SM: That would be valuable. JHS: We tried to keep it, after churches split. We should not have left this; we should have kept it. Anyway, the first session, I believe was July 21 (sometime in the third week of July), 1968. About ninety people attended, and at that time the whole population here…I don't know, one hundred twenty or so, maybe. You can see why they should be non-Christian and Christian, all mixed up. I think it's continued, or was open (it had to be) for United Christian Campus Fellowship. SM: In St. Paul? JHS: Right here. SM: Oh, in Minneapolis. JHS: Yes. The bible class was meeting at the St. Paul UCCF, but's here. So they have, until sometime, I believe…1979, I don't know how many months, six months or nine months, continued. We had a service there, and then moved to Macalester College (the chapel). SM: [Unclear] JHS: That's what it is. We moved to there, because of the numbers increasing. SM: That's a nice chapel. JHS: Yes. 1979, I believe. Then the Korean Christian Fellowship was really the place where everybody, once a week, meet and have a service. It was a good gathering, and also this church has helped a great deal, to the community; whenever help is needed, we're willing to offer. It's fine. At the time the first church was organized, there was an administrative body. Daniel Kim was chairman, and the vice-chairman was Reverend Lee, who was here (he was one of the ministers in Korea, the same city, Taegue City, at one of the big churches there; still I think he is a minister there). Y.B. Kim was the general Page 34 of 57

secretary, and I was the treasurer. Accounting was done by Mr. Y.H. Lee. The five people were administrative, in the sense of co-elements[?]. They decide policy, and so on. SM: You called this the administrative…? JHS: I don't know what to call it. Administrative. And this is where the policy, and the planning was done. Then there's another committee, the larger committee. Probably this is a steering committee, in a sense, and then the administrative committee is the larger committee, where there are about seven more people…five more people. Dr. Juhn, and Mr. Philip Ahn, and Mr. Yoo (who was a student), S.J. Yoo. Another one is Mr. H. Keel. Then H.S. Kim, who is not at the Methodist church. And then Mr. H.I. Han, which you may have spoken to. I don't know; there may be more, or less. Anyway the policy is planned and presented to the whole body, and the decision is made in the whole body…actually, the decision is made in this [larger] committee. That was going well, and lasted until 1971 or 1972. I was here until 1971, so it lasted until1971, but beyond that, the problems started. The problems started in 1971, but anyway, this lasted until 1971. Meantime, this church acted not only for the service, but also, in 1979, I organized the Korean language school for children. For Sunday school we taught the Korean languages and the cultures, for children…after Sunday school we had it, separate. At that time, the main contributor for this kind of activity was (now he's a doctor) U.C. Shin. He's teaching at Kentucky State University; he did a comparative literature and history, something. Another one is Mr. C.H. Chung, who is here now, in our church. These two individuals have contributed a great deal. Then I was in charge of the language school, with these two, and others, and taught these children language, and so on. It was going on; so the question, then, is why this problem started. Daniel Kim wanted to…they changed this fellowship to church, now. The reason is, I assume, he wanted the church all the time, but I think he felt probably this should be, now, renamed and reorganized, to Church. Whether he really wanted that…I think he wanted to have a church, all right, but this was the immediate problem: he wants to have this [fellowship] renamed and reorganized; he wants to have a real church, rather than fellowship continued. Some were for his idea, and then the others (many) who actually participated in organizing [the fellowship] were against it. We wanted to continue to have the Christian Fellowship. I know the reason why I was against it; the reason was…still premature to have the church when, having the church, there are several problems we cannot solve. One is the denominational problem, which we cannot prevent. If we were to have one church in this town, then we should not bring the problem of denomination, which eventually, is going to be split because of this fact. Not only that, Daniel Kim was a Baptist, and nobody was a Baptist in this congregation. The single person…maybe his, children. No Baptists I know of. So the question is, what denomination? We were of the thinking that if we had to have church, then we should have denominational church from the beginning, before delay the problem. Either we keep the fellowship, or denominational church. Now, how to decide denomination? The people who wanted the fellowship....then we have to follow the majority of the congregation, at that time Presbyterian. Korea is more Presbyterian than Methodist… actually, those two are the majority of Christians. This is the reason why, how to decide. Page 35 of 57

There is no way we can decide here. But it was his idea, if it's just a church without the denomination. SM: Oh, he didn't want the denomination? JHS: No, no; he didn't want the denomination, because he knew he cannot have the Baptist denomination; it's impossible. We could have kept this church, for three years, without any problem. He was working, you see; he was actually a minister but he was teaching at this school, so we didn't have to pay too much. At that time, financially it's impossible to keep. That was another problem. If we are to have church, we have to have a minister full-time; then we cannot afford to pay. This is always a problem. The people who wanted the church…this is a fellowship, and this is not church. That's what the problem was. What is the difference? I don't know hardly; I can't tell. This was the problem, but this was not really behind the problem. Behind the problem is several reasons: I think in general there are three (as I see it) factors which caused the split of the churches. One is a ministers' problem. One has…I don‘t know, theological problems. He‘s really so involved, so it's difficult to judge. The ministers, in general, in Korea, are not only preachers at the church, but [is] a kind of leader in the church, and practically runs the church. In Korea, he is the leader of the church, and not only serves the church, but he runs the church. SM: It‘s a very strong kind of position. JHS: It's a strong minister-oriented church in Korea. And most of the ministers who come here have that kind of background. Because of this reason, I think being a church…I don‘t know if this kind of attitude is behind that, or not; I cannot judge. However, this is the background. Generally the Korean minister is either fundamentalist, or very conservative. That‘s the reason why this kind of fellowship…they do not care for the churchgoers; they have to be [chuckles] believers. SM: And the ministers are really pushing for that. JHS: That's right. He was pushing for it. I think that's a problem. Now, second problem is a financial problem. Minister (naturally, he has a right to live) is asking the financial security, before we congregate - and cannot possibly afford. This is another problem. This financial (minister's) problem comes up, and generally they ask far before the congregation can possibly support. There's no way we can do it. I think these two problems. These ministers want to be a leader - try to run the church, practically. And then it's people…we have changed; although we have a Korean face, having lived in this country for a long time, now we are accustomed to democracy, so that we like to run the church in a democratic way. This creates a problem. SM: Part of the acculturation. JHS: Cultural problem. I think that‘s a main problem…we see the minister here as a messenger, rather than the leader or the ruler of the church. He cannot see that. I think of this as a minister's problem. And the [other] major problem is laymen's leadership here leadership of laymen. Page 36 of 57

SM: That's what happened at the Fellowship. JHS: That's right. Because of their financial burden…so that somebody a little better off have to carry the financial burdens. When they pay more…or if we're really good Christians…I think if you offer the offerings with the right hand, and then forget…what do you call this thing…left hand. But this does not occur in reality; when they pay, they are more anxious to see that the church develops [according to] their idea of what churches should be. This is another problem of laymen's leadership - the financial burden somebody has to carry. And not necessarily the good believer have money to pay; some people, not so good believer, pay - and then he has to have a voice. No? When he has a voice, if he is not recognized as a leader in the church, then it creates a problem. If the lay leader is a respectable man, then it's different. Again it's between the lay leaders and the ministers - if a split occurs, then it's a problem. The problem of lay leaders exists. The third problem is that the community here is not a stable community; many come, and study, and then go. New one comes. That's always a problem. Then, gradually (1970s) you see the increasing number of the settlers came in; and then lots of new ones cane in, so that when the new one comes in, they don't know the history, what happened, how the church is organized, how it is run, and why this is happening. It's difficult to know. Naturally this new flux comes in; then its history is lost, and the people who had been there…between these people and the newcomers, the communication may break down. When the newcomers become the majority, then they see settlers as detrimental to the development of the church, because generally settlers here (obviously) are against the minister [who] wants to build a church. The newcomers see no justification not to have a church. Why shouldn't they have a church? After all, particularly in Korea, churches are run in that fashion. Why not? What's wrong with the minister? He's the center of the leader[ship]…run the church. What's wrong with it? It's not 'kosher' - you see. SM: They'd side with the minister, then. JHS: Yes. They side with the minister, and the minister, naturally, sides with them. Then these three components is combined, and the problem occurs. SM: One thing I'm not clear on is the problem of lay leadership. JHS: At that time, Dr. Kim was lay leader. But he was not the problem. Y.B. Kim was lay leader, and he was a devoted man, he worked hard. He was actually in between the minister and the [congregation]. SM: A moderator.

JHS: Right. Dr. Kim was very fundamentalist, and he had a very little contact with the committee people here. He was a very strict man who was not sociable. He'd never discuss anything about the church, except with [Y.B.] Kim. SM: And since he had this other full time job… JHS: And also he's a one who has that kind of personality. He doesn't discuss anything Page 37 of 57

about the church with the people who he thinks he cannot consider Christian – true Christian. He was against the ecumenical movement. You can see the problem with this kind of fellowship; I don't think he liked that. SM: Here it had been very inclusive. JHS: He's a fundamentalist, he's totally against the ecumenical movement, so he tried to bring… Someone who had a background of ecumenical movement, although he may be a Christian - he doesn‘t like to get associated with. Dr. [Y.B.] Kim was a conservative man, but he was more broadminded, and he kind of moderated this problem. This is partly sociological and partly theological and partly financial (later on). Financial problems didn't occur at that time (the first part), but later on that was always a problem. SM: And partly the personality of the minister. JHS: First of all, I don‘t think he is capable of leading people, of this kind of gathering of Christian and non-Christian [who] get together to work out this kind of problem. The majority are the church goers, as I told you; this is our cultural background and the only reason they go to the church…there are many other reasons, not only the service, but many other reasons. If that's the reason why, I think the people who are against having the church at that time, knew [we‘d have] this kind of problems. He did not see this kind of problem, and also the newcomers (some of them are Christian, some may not be Christian) see the settlers here (the people who are engaged in this kind of problem) as without reason. They are against ministers - this kind of feeling developed. Many factors are involved here. And then become emotional later on. Emotion is involved. With the oldest kind of problem, emotions, then it's very difficult to find what is fact, what is feeling. SM: Plus the tensions of adjusting to a new land. JHS: And the breaking point is actually starting the church. Why, all of a sudden, want to have a church? I don't know. Maybe you should ask Daniel Kim; maybe he can explain theologically. To me, it's not a matter of the theological; the problem is the reality here, and this is all entangled with the sociological…maybe theological, maybe other reasons; it's entangled. When the split occurred, I was not there, but then it's a group of people against the minister, who came out. There was Mr. Y.H. Lee, and Mr. H.S. Hyun (he's the social worker, and he went, also to the seminary school, although. he was not a minister), and those two organized the group who were against the minister. They formed the fellowship again. Korean Christian Fellowship. SM: And the Fellowship included Catholics and Protestants? JHS: At that time everything was included. [End of side] SM: And in the second group too? JHS: Second group too, everything. That was before the Catholic Church here organized, Page 38 of 57

so that everybody who was Catholic was there. Protestants of all denominations were there, non-believers were there, everybody was there. That started in July, 1972; that was two weeks before I came back from Korea…sabbatical. Dr. Kim was on leave again, in Los Angeles I think; that was another problem. Y.B. Kim. SM: And he had been kind of a moderate. JHS: He was one; and then I was gone - nobody moderated [chuckles]. I don't know whether I could help or not, but if I was here, probably I was against having another one, and perhaps continue to join in, and help the problem within, rather than outside. That's why it should not be divided, but it was done, and then it's difficult to put it together again. That's the reason why I didn't attend for five months - no churches. I didn't go this one, or that one - neither one. SM: I can see one difficulty, if the church was functioning as a community organization, that it has to include everyone. JHS: That‘s right. This is a problem, I think, even now. After this all happened, because of these problems (particularly newcomers comes in, and the past is not known), that's the reason why - all the churches. Actually, problems starts, and the split occurs in three or four years. Then the newcomers become the majority and - split. This is what happens; that's the way it was. SM: And not too long later this became a community church. JHS: That‘s right. Then about three years later, this original [church] split again. This one stayed as Korean Christian Fellowship, and the original one stayed as Korean Church in Twin Cities. Then about three years later this split again. Another group split from here and they became a Methodist Church. Mr. Han and Mr. Kim. Then this newcomer, Mr. Ko…who is an associate. These three people were the leaders of that. Then, you can see, these people who considered the original fellows, who were against the minister, as settlers. Then three years later they became settlers [laughs]. SM: Mr. Han told me this - the problem was Daniel Kim. JHS: Not only Daniel Kim, but the problem is these three. Whenever newcomers become the majority of the congregation, naturally this situation can be exploited readily, if any minister wants to exploit it. It's the simplest thing; you can exploit it. SM: Sure. So the ministers would look for new members from the newcomers. JBS: Newcomers naturally support the minister, and then if they see anybody against the minister, they naturally have to go and build another one. SM: The dissenters. JHS: Three more years later they split again.

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SM: So it would be six all together? JHS: Yes, six years. This one is a Methodist Church, and among this, they became two. One is a Presbyterian Church, the other one was a Baptist Church (Daniel Kim). The point is, originally, from the beginning, he wanted to lead the church into the Baptist Church. SM: He finally succeeded. JHS: [Laughs] Succeeded in a bad way, though. SM: So it would be a pattern, then, when the newcomers become a majority. JHS: The same thing happened to our church, too. Korean Christian Fellowship; and then three years later, become a community church - Korean Community Church. Then the minister wants this church to be a Methodist Church. You see? So naturally we are against that. Rather than having a denomination, we should be kept as interdenominational, if we want to have a church. Then we went to the Methodist Church, and then there was a split again. He went out and founded a Methodist Church; we stayed on as a community church. SM: So he took mainly the newcomers. JHS: That's right. That's the way it always happens. That's the reason why this is not necessarily theological - more sociological. If the minister has this kind of more broad-minded background, he could handle it a little better then Naturally, a minister would like to have believers, get together, and then lead in his own theological direction, but this doesn't work all the time. That was the point. Then sometime the Catholic Church was organized, about two years later I believe, after this. I can see the Catholics meeting, themselves; it's reasonable. SM: It's remarkable they met with the Protestants to begin with. JHS: It's natural, that Catholics [would organize]; without any problems they organized. Catholics got to organize; that's all right. It's no problem. What I still have difficulty to see is Protestants, with this kind of sociological background - and to split so much. We have another church, now, here, this Seventh Day Adventists Church. SM: That's the newest. JHS: There was another one, which I don't know how it's built, and who is there. I have no idea. I don't know, even, who is in the Baptist Church. All newcomers; I don't know. SM: There's a Reverend Lee in the Baptist Church now. JHS: I don't know most of the congregation in the other churches, because all of them are relatively new. Only a few people I know, in each, generally. What's the interesting part is, initially were the settlers, and the others saw us as the settlers; and then three years later Page 40 of 57

they became the settlers, and then three years another [group] becomes the settlers. The cycle is repeating itself. SM: It's a problem of the immigrant community. It's changing. JHS: That's right. That's the reason why, I think, that it was difficult. We knew this from the beginning, even in 1968 when it was organized. We knew this is going to happen, but it was very difficult to prevent it. I think the reason we could not prevent it is not because of the congregation; I think it's because of the ministers. That's what my conclusion is. They have no such a training place. SM: They wanted it just like it was in Korea, I suppose. JHS: It was difficult. So I think this, always, with the church problem - it's three problems: minister, lay leadership, and this congregation. These three problems, that I told you, and this is always mixed up. I think the principal factor which caused the split is this immigration…sociological. SM: Yes. That lays a lot of stress on everybody. JHS: And also it's very difficult. I have lived here twenty-five years, and when a newcomer comes, it's very difficult to communicate. Not because they're not educated, but the life pattern is different, cultural background is different. And they expect us to behave like Koreans do, and all they do here is change it, American-wise. I will show you a good example. In Korea in the room, there is a gathering; when the eldest comes in, everybody stands up. Custom. Regardless of whether lady or man, whenever the elder comes in we are supposed to stand up. This is a courtesy. Okay? Now, when we come in this country, we are supposed to stand up when ladies comes, in, but usually men come in, we don't stand up. Do we? SM: Right. JHS: So what we do here…when you see the Koreans, sometimes they stand up, regardless of who comes in [laughs], and sometimes they don't stand up at all. The Americanized fellow, ladies come, stand up. And the Korean way, elders come in, stand up, regardless of whether female or male. It's always confusion. And then, if you don't behave according to Korean standards…the Korean elder comes to town, and the young guys don't stand up, [and] this is lack of manners. Interpreted as lack of manners. Right away. And then Americans, fellows who stayed here a long time, when the lady comes in, don't stand up - they lack manners [laughs]. This kind of problem - a good example. I always cite this good example. This is the reason why we have difficulty to community with the newcomers; and there is always some communication problems. Also it is true that when you live in this kind of country— [Tape interrupted] JHS: Y.J. Kim. Now he's a very interesting man. I think we have a good minister… probably understand us, and we understand him. Yung Jae Kim. I don't know whether Page 41 of 57

you want a history of him. He finished the religious philosophy, I believe, in Seoul National University, and then he went to England for three years, studied in seminary school, and then came to Korea and attended one year or two years in seminary school in Korea, to become a minister. SM: Which seminary was that? JHS: That was a Presbyterian Seminary - Korean Presbyterian Seminary. Then he became minister; I think he was a minister a year or two, a very short period of time. He went to Germany to study theology for seven years. He's now a doctor in theology, I believe, or in philosophy. He got the degree. SM: That's the foremost place to study theology. JHS: Yes. It's very difficult to study there. He studied, and then he was also assistant minister at one of the German churches; and then came here. SM: He must have a very good command of languages. JHS: Oh, yes. Not only the German, English, Korean, but also, I think, Japanese and Latin and Greek, maybe. He has lots of languages. He's over educated for our church, but I hope…our problem is support, actually. It's very difficult to support [a minister], our congregation is so small. That's another problem we have. SM: What is the size of your congregation? JHS: The congregation…the regular members is about sixty, and then there comes and goes, maybe ten or fifteen. SM: Some people attend who aren't regular members - or do you have different kinds of memberships? JHS: We have [one] membership, but it's [those who] regularly attend. We don't have any list of members. SM: Regular attenders. JHS: Yes. SM: So you've really kept the old idea, then. You don't have a membership. JHS: It's open, and interdenominational. The only interdenominational church. We kept up, in a sense, the original group. SM: It's interesting. There's a Chinese church (I'm sure you're aware of it) which I went to a few times, and they seem very determined to remain nondenominational. Something like this.

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JHS: You have to. SM: To be independent. JHS: Not only independent. To keep one church. SM: Right. The same problem, if they were a denomination. JHS: Yes. Keep one church, because of this reason, you see. The minister is seeking security. There are two ways they seek the security. One is belonging to the American Ministers' Conference. There's some support they can get; also, I'm sure, moral support as well…some other support. They get financial support, anyway. The Ministers' Conference, they all like to belong to. To belong to it, then naturally, denomination has to be the factor as well. SM: That's the only way. JHS: That's right. This is one. And second [way] is they try to increase the financial aspect from the congregation. They ask, even before we are capable of doing it. This is also a problem. For instance, our church; we actually recommended Dr. to join the Conference. He joined it, too, the year before; we were happy to let him join it, because of these reasons. We discussed all this problem with the Conference representative, that we would like to keep it nondenominational - whether it's okay, even if he joins. Under these circumstances, he would be welcome to join, and whatever he needs… SM: That's the Methodist Conference? JHS: That's right. Then after one year all of a sudden, he wants to have a Methodist Church. SM: That's interesting, that the Conference would allow him to join - and not a Methodist church. JHS: They were very generous, in the sense that we discussed that they would consider our church… The minister, he's their member, and has a mission to run the nondenominational church. SM: They're pretty liberal. JHS: Yes. SM: But then he decided to go farther. JHS: That was not the problem - of whether we become Methodist or non-Methodist. That was the way it was presented, because he didn't know how to proceed, and the way he presented…as a ruler, rather than… SM: The old problem. Page 43 of 57

JHS: We objected. We wanted to go through due process and then decide, rather than decided by somebody else. This was the problem. [If] the majority was for it, we didn't have any objection. SM: It was over whether to join the Methodist Church? JHS: Oh, yes. We had a general meeting, and that's the reason why he became a minority; and then he left. SM: Could he have stayed, I wonder? JHS: Well, because of the way he presented it, and irritated all the congregation, it's a problem. Trust is lost, or the feeling is lost, and a minister cannot survive. If he wanted to stay, as a nondenominational church, I think he could have stayed. He could have stayed, with some difficulty, but he could have stayed. SM: Nobody would have forced him out. JHS: No, nobody. Our church group is very reasonable people, and we went through this previous agony, when the first split…we hated that. We went through it because of this reason; we were very reluctant to go through this kind of problem so if he wanted to stay, he could have stayed. SM: It was all a democratic process. JHS: That's right. There was no problem there. I don't think it's any problem, if there was a majority. Even minority…if he changed his mind, he would have stayed. What he says was we forced [him] out, but nobody forced him out; he himself forced himself out. SM: I wonder if he can really attract a very big… JHS: I doubt it. SM: Maybe it's reached a saturation point, with so many churches. JHS: I know. I don't think we can. What I visualize in the future, this will be reorganized to fewer churches. Some day. SM: There is a limit to how many people there are. JHS: This is the reality - some day. It may not be accomplished in our generation, but the next generation, they will, because it has to be done. If I see the feasibility, I would be more than happy to make an effort to reorganize, but I don't think it's possible at this time. There is no possibility that we can reorganize, but I think that this has to be done some way. In many ways it's a waste. SM: Some theories are that part of the attraction of the Korean church is the small, Page 44 of 57

intimate group, and that when it gets big, at a certain point, then it splits. Do you think that has anything to do with it? JHS: No, I don‘t think that has anything to do with it. I think it‘s because of this fluctuation - the newcomers and the oldtimers. If oldtimers stayed on, I think it would have been much different. This is one, this fluctuation; and secondly, the minister who has a philosophy broad enough to encompass all this - believers, and church goers, together, and he can lead, to some extent, rather than rule. He can serve. I have seen two ministers in my life; I never seen others. And both of them, actually, in my feeling, want to be rulers at the same time. That cannot be changed, and it‘s difficult to be that way, after we have been here for a long time. SM: The minister usually is more recently immigrated than the congregation, that‘s the problem. JHS: Yes. Daniel Kim was not, but he such a fundamental…very narrow minded kind of approach; that was another problem. That was unusual; usually people who went to school here and then became… He was a theology student here, but he has such fundamentalistic ideas, and object to all the ecumenical… And then everything else. SM: Very uncompromising. JHS: Yes, uncompromising. That‘s impossible. Otherwise he could have been much better off. SM: It might be, too, that the ministers that have just come from Korea, might not understand all the problems of immigration. JHS: That's right. All the ministers, now – it‘s not recent; about five or six years ago never went to school here. I think even Kim was that way, and the Baptist Church minister is the same. I think the minister of the Presbyterian Church, he started here, I believe, but I don't know how many… SM: I think he did, too. In Texas, or somewhere? JHS: Yes. Not too long. It‘s a difficulty, to some extent. SM: Yes. Because the people here are aware of the American freedoms. JHS: The main problem here…I think this is a physicians' problem, too. Physicians used to be a leader in the community; they are more educated. SM: But not now? JHS: I mean in any society - American society or Korean society, as well. But people are more educated. There are lots of people far more intelligent, more educated, than physicians, actually; so the physician, in a sense, lost the kind of leadership, even in American society. Page 45 of 57

SM: Yes, there is a lot of hostility in American society towards physicians now. JHS: They‘re making more money, without…[chuckles]. That is also true in Korean society, as well, but particularly ministers, in Korean society, used to be leaders. Not only in the church, but also in the community, you see. [Anyone] who grew up in this kind of environment, and come to the United States where all of the congregation, practically, are more educated than the minister himself. Under these circumstances it's very difficult. SM: That is a difficult situation. JHS: I think Mr. [unclear] problem was there. This is what the problem was; he didn't understand us, and we didn't understand him, practically. SM: Because it was such an intellectual congregation. JHS: That's right. But we kept him for six years. A long time. The reason why we kept him so long was because we had a previous experience, and tried not to have another. This was the motivation, mainly. Also, he didn't continue, because we had more…all the time, those newcomers [laughs]. The newcomers were the majority; then we could have left, or…You see? SM: Yes. JHS: That's always a problem, when the newcomers become a majority. They side the minister, then it happens. When this problem come up, actually, we were talking about it… When we become a minority we are not going to found another church, but…to join the existing church. That was our discussion. If we become a majority, we cannot help but continue, but if we become a minority (I was advocating that), then we are not going to have another church, but join the existing church. That was agreed upon - test agreement, here. But unfortunately, we became the majority, and then… SM: This was in this latest… JHS: Yes. That was the problem. Last year, actually. So we became the majority; we couldn't help it. [Laughs] SM: So if you had become a minority, you would have joined another church? JHS: No question. Without any doubt in my mind, without any doubt. No reason to have another church [chuckles]. [Tape interrupted] SM: I was just asking Dr. Sung about the role of professionals in the Korean community here. JHS: I told you about the Korean language school for children in the original church. Page 46 of 57

After they split, one is the Korean Christian Fellowship, and the other one is Korean Church of the Twin Cities. They kept the Sunday school, and also we kept… I was not attending, for five months, either one. I didn't want to attend. The reason I started to attend was interesting. My son came back with me; he was eleven years old. One day he asked me, "Why aren't we attending the church?" I didn't tell him anything about it, and all of a sudden he said, "Why aren't we attending the church?" I had to explain why this happened, so I explained the difference of opinion, and the split while we are away, and that I was with the group against the minister, and that group organized another church. I told him that I didn't like to see this split, and I felt that we should keep one church, rather than split, so that this was against my idea, and that‘s the reason why I cannot decide which one to attend now. Either one was against my thinking. So I asked him, "What would you do? I would be happy to follow your recommendation. What would you do if you were in my shoes?" He said, "It's very interesting." I thought we were grownup, but sometimes we are less reasonable than these children. He told me, "There are four things we have to consider. One, which friend goes where." (He has to find out.) "And then, the next one is which minister preaches better. And then, the third is, which church is better." (He means the facility is better, in a sense.) And the fourth was, which Korean school is better. SM: He missed going to the Korean school? JHS: Oh, yes, he learned; he can still write. So I told him, "Okay, then why don't we do this way. We go together to both places, visit both places, and you decide for me." A couple of weeks later, "Let's go and take a look." He said, "No." ―Why? You told me that we are going to decide, and you told me very nice things, and I agree with you completely, and now will leave up to your decision. Why you say, all of a sudden, no?" He said that he heard something from his friend, that this minister was wrong, that‘s the reason why we didn't like that, and that's the reason why we got out. If that‘s the case, he doesn‘t want to go to that church [laughs]. Not only that, he was very [angry]; "Why didn't you tell me the truth?," he said. "I told you the truth. That‘s all the truth, and the other is all feelings. I have feelings, and others may have feelings. You see. The truth was there, and all I didn't tell you about [was] my feelings. Feeling is not important; fact is more important." So he didn't want to go there. So I said okay, that's what we do. In the meantime, because Dr. Kim was a good friend, and he couldn't refuse, so he had to attend the newly organized church. He was asked to attend, and he was participating. He asked me whether I would reconsider, so I said, "Okay, one condition, and I will attend." SM: This is your friend, Dr. Kim. JHS: Not Daniel Kim. So Dr. Kim said, "Okay, I would like to organize this Korean language school again, and I‘ll be in charge of it." "One condition. I will not be asked to participate in running the church, or any committees for the church. Only one assignment - Korean language school. I will be happy to." So I organized Korean language school again. [Laughs] You cannot stay separated; you're gradually drawn into the same kinds of problems. But meantime, about a year later, the fellows - Dr. T.H. Kim, and several others I believe - felt that at least the Korean language schools should be unified. That was a good idea. So, okay, that‘s fine. I did not object; I think it‘s a good idea, but in reality it was difficult to run…it last too long. Anyway, it's a good idea, to unify. They Page 47 of 57

dissolved the language school in our church, and they did too, and then unified them; the Korean language school developed. SM: The Korean Institute. JHS: That's right. SM: Was that 1974? JHS: That was 1974, I believe, or 1973. 1974. SM: So your school went for two years, about. JHS: One year or two years, I don't know exactly. A year and a half, probably, our school. SM: That's a lot of work for you. JHS: Then it dissolved, and joined the Korean Institute. I was not particularly encouraged about this development; it's very difficult. You see, for Korean children, if you attend the language school on Saturday, they have no weekend. One, for children it's too much of a burden; second, for parents it's too much of a burden. My idea is unify the church, and have it in the church. Then it's one time; still I think it's reasonable to do. Financially it's more reasonable, and effort-wise, and time-wise. I think it still has to be done that way, but because of the church it's difficult. That's the reason why the church, at the beginning, as one, served a great deal - to the community. But when it split, the society split, and then many things become wasted. Now, when there are two, the society is split, but I wanted… As long as two, then more than three should be there, because that's why…society…small groups, there is less, factionalism. Now it's no problem, because no individual church is the majority. But it's, still a waste of human energy…financial, everything else is wasted. SM: There must be something different about what the church performs, and what the secular Korean Association… JHS: It's a difference, it is true. When the church is more closely tied with the feelings intimate, and so on - naturally they make more effort in the small group functions, and by doing the group functions, they can accomplish all the social life. The Korean Association, under these circumstances, is very difficult; they can do only outside, as representing the. Korean community, rather than inside. You see? They can't do much on the inside. SM: Why is that? JHS: Because if you participate in church…they're full time, practically. There is nothing else you can do. There is too much…time-consuming. You cannot attend, or participate in other functions. It's very difficult time-wise, and because of all the financial effort that goes through the church, so that it's even financially difficult. I think that's the Page 48 of 57

reason why. So the Korean Association is, in a sense, more the interaction with the general…other organizations, and representing. Everybody who has financial capability, or at least leadership, all participate in the church program, so they are full-time, practically. SM: Takes all their energy. JHS: So that's why, in my opinion, regardless of whether we are believers or not, in this society, to develop as a small community, a church-based community would be the thing to develop. The reason is all the moral teaching…all the moral things; it‘s cracking up. Where do we get, now, moral education? We have to. This is the last resort - we can keep our morality going, for the children, and so on. There is not other place. I find very distressing that, for instance, when I was living in New York, there were ten year olds, eleven year olds, and when the snow cones they make snow balls and throw at the passing cars; but adults passing by - no one says a word about it. Young children smoke on the corners, and so on. The grownups are passing by, no one says a word. Now, I don't know whether this is freedom - they can do anything they want. SM: They're probably afraid of them [laughs] . JHS: But this is not the case when I was growing up. The elders always feel responsibility toward the younger ones, and they tell them, "This is not right. This is right." They don't object, either. But in New York, if I say, "You shouldn't throw…,‖maybe they will knife me. SM: One thing that is interesting is that, I think, in an earlier generation here (when I grew up, and my husband grew up), we grew up in a family much more like in Korea, where the whole community was more integrated, and all the adults would take more responsibility to teach the children. We grew up in a much more. Traditional…but it‘s changed so much. JHS: There was a movie recently showing a little child in the New York area, who tried to get help from passersby. Nobody cares. At most they say, "Oh, I'm busy. You go to the policeman." SM: They're afraid they'll be attacked. In Chicago it's the same. The police, even, will tell you, "Don't chase them. They‘ll kill you. If they ask for your money, give it to them." That's what the police will tell you…just a matter of safety. Something is really wrong. JHS: This is the reason why I felt that this kind of community… I am not particularly Christian, but I enjoy attending the church. The last sixteen years I was involved, and I began to enjoy it, regardless of whether, I really was a Christian or non-Christian. It's a secondary matter. I enjoy; and sit there and think about lots of things. It's enjoyable, once a week. Look back on my life, weekdays, and think about. SM: And a sense of community. JHS: And also feel like I'm doing something, one of the members, and whether I can Page 49 of 57

contribute to the community. This kind of feeling, it's wonderful. I think that's the reason why I feel that the church based in the Korean community… I would like to personally see that a church-oriented community develops. I am sure there are lots of other opinions. SM: That's very interesting, from a non-Christian. JHS: Yes. I was not interested in studying medicine; I wanted to study philosophy originally. Just by chance I became a physician. That's the reason why, maybe; I‘m oriented that way, I don't know. I like to see that the community develops; in many ways I think I see lots of good things about the church, and then also [that] church organization can do lots for the community. I think the church should be involved, and it should involve [itself] in community development. If I was minister, I certainly would…[laughs] I jokingly told that when I retire I would like to go to seminary school and then become a minister, and see that [laughs] . SM: I guess we got off the track, and forgot about the professional community. JHS: I think that's the reason why - because of all the professionals involved with the Korean Institute and the Korean Association; in many ways we were very actively involved. Just like American society, the physicians make more money, and then they are somewhat resented, to some extent. All the Koreans here - the professionals - try to see that - they very actively participate; only a few do not. Most of them, really, participate. But we have some problems here because of this… Community involvement is too much, so that we neglect the involvement in the American community. That's another problem. SM: You can't do everything. JHS: This is the problem, because of time and effort, same way, like if you' re involved in church, and neglect to some extent, the Korean Association. SM: I would imagine that the professionals interact more with the American community than the others do. JHS: In the professional aspect; but it's not commuity life, though. Very little in community life; that's what's the problem. All the energy goes to the Korean community. I sometimes feel that…which way is right, which way is wrong? It's very difficult to judge. SM: And there's such a limit on your time, and it's having to decide. JHS: Yes. This is also my problem. SM: Will it be different with your children, in the next generation? JHS: Next generation - naturally. As I said, I'd like to see that church-oriented community development. Now, my children, I think, if this church becomes denominational and joins the American church, they will find very little justification to Page 50 of 57

remain as a Korean church. There are two options left for them. Either they join completely the American church, or keep the interdenominational Korean church. There won't be very much in between, for the next generation. SM: So that whole business of denominational affiliation is really crucial. JHS: I think it‘s crucial. If they really want Korean - as a community, or Korean, as a cultural entity - to remain as such, and contribute to the society (like Jewish, or some other, remains), then if this can be done through the church, the church must remain interdenominational. And this interdenominational [church] should have some identity with Korean. Otherwise, there's no justification. The only thing tying us together is the language and the custom. Isn't it? Theologically there's nothing there. SM: No. It is the culture. It seems as though the church and culture intertwine quite a bit. JHS: But eventually it won't be, because the next generation, they won't be… SM: They'll be Americans. JHS: That‘s right. We have, to some extent. That‘s the reason why they're tied. But theological difference… I don't see any. SM: Oh, you mean among the Korean churches? JHS: Yes. SM: I don't see any difference either, but I haven't been to all of them. JHS: There's no difference. That's the reason why… The ministers insist that they are different; I don't see it. SM: Reverend Kim said, "I think Reverend [unclear] wanted his Methodist church to be more conservative than ours, but it isn't." [Chuckles] JHS: Nothing different. SM: It will be interesting to see what happens over the next generation. JHS: Two options. Either they become interdenominational and get together, or they all join the American churches, if they want to stay as Christian. Nowadays, it's the young fellows - if they go. I don't know whether the church can survive, even - Christianity itself. SM: Do you think it's possible these churches might reunify? JHS: I have a feeling that it can be. There's an example in Hawaii. There were lots of churches; now, this generation, there are only a few. Page 51 of 57

SM: So they are reunified. JHS: Oh, yes, I think so. Another problem is, later on there won't be ministers. All of a sudden we have lots of ministers, immigrated from Korea. After they get old…not many go to the seminary school now, so that there won't be ministers. In Korea, yes, but not here. They have to speak English to preach, for the next generation. SM: And they'll be even more distant, culturally, from the second generation. JHS: That's right. I think that's why interdenominational [should] remain as such, and they have to train ministers to preach to the next generation. Otherwise there won't be any ministers, there won't be any churches. The Korean church should remain interdenominational, and then fewer churches, and then train people, who will continue. SM: They would train them themselves, then - a kind of lay minster? JHS: No, I don't think lay ministers. Seminary school, if they want to. American seminary school, and support them, to develop. SM: They could develop a point of view that's suitable for the American… JHS: Right. American Koreans. Imported - that wouldn't work anymore. SM: It'll get difficult, more and more. JBS: A small community has the same problem, like a larger community, except it's more difficult to solve. SM: Well, thank you very much ( End of second interview )

(Third interview) SM: We're continuing our conversation on the Korean community. JHS: In 1960 we were talking about the bible study group and the Korean Association and the Korean Student Association. These three groups were in real unity because [they were] a homogenous group, in the sense that all of them are academicians or students. Everything was taking place in the university community, and only the few - mainly Mr. Lee - who participated in the activities. Later in the 1960s, with the increasing number of students, increasing number of settlers, then they were beginning to see some breakdown of the communication, or close-knit [relations]. Some felt alienation in the community, mainly the newcomers. Then the churches started; the Korean Christian Fellowship started, which I think generally pulled the people together, but there was a group who did not participate in the church activities, mainly the students. Many of them did not Page 52 of 57

participate in the Korean Christian Fellowship, but most of the settlers participated. In a sense, the center of activities, now, shifted from the university community to the Korean Christian Fellowship, after they built. SM: What year is this now? JHS: Actually, July 1968, on. Because of this the focus of the activities shifted to the church, and there is a certain upset feeling by the people who did not participate in church activities, namely many graduate students. At that time, gradually, there was… SM: By church you mean the Christian Fellowship? JHS: Yes. After the Christian Fellowship was organized, however, the people, almost two-thirds of the community population, participated in the Christian Fellowship. That became a center of not only religious activity but also a social center, information center all kinds of centers there, in the community. It was okay initially, and then gradually the people who had been active in church activities in Korea, who came here, and also people who were very conservative in religious ideas, and the minister, felt that the Korean Christian Fellowship was not really a church. They felt this is more like a social club, so gradually they tried to move this in the direction of the traditional church. Naturally, the people who started to participate in church activities - new ones, the students and other people who had never had close relations with a church, or had never participated in church activities in Korea, and people who were more liberal in religious thought - were comfortable with the Korean Christian Fellowship, and they felt that the Korean Christian Fellowship should continue to function as such. The other group felt that this was the time to move to the traditional church. Then the issue was clear enough, but although the people who wanted to continue the Korean Christian Fellowship did not object to going toward the traditional church, they wanted to go slower in establishing it, because of the community environment. A large percentage of Koreans here were not Christians, yet they are participating, so they welcomed their participation. To have them participate, I think, the church must be more liberal, and continue to be liberal. I think that was an issue, but this issue is mixed up with the emotional… As time goes by, as discussion becomes heated up, then emotions come in. SM: So the majority were not Christians? JHS: I would say about half of them are not really active participants of church. They may be Christians, they may not be Christians; there is no clear line - in Korea. Also, in that group there are lots of people who are the early Christians, too, but they are more liberal, that's all. You see? SM: Were there liberals in the Korean church in Korea? JHS: Oh sure - the ecumenical movement. Very active. They have some, oh yes. The issue was clear, but mixed with the emotions here. Then the issue becomes clouded, or buried in emotions, eventually. But I think at the beginning…at the first general meeting, the issue was reasonably clear to most. Then it divided, half and half practically. Page 53 of 57

SM: And the issue was simply whether to move towards a traditional… JHS: Right now, or… You see? Then the issue was divided, and the two groups were really half and half, in numbers, at the first general meeting. There, the first confrontation occurred. Then the group who wanted to continue to have the Christian Fellowship yielded - a number of the people - so that that meeting decided to have the church. SM: Right at the first general meeting. JHS: Yes. Then this group, which opposed that, usually did not participate…just let it go. After that I left, so I don't know what happened. I was told that several months later they had another general meeting, where they tried to bring up the issue, and reconsider… decide again, because many people did not participate in the first general meeting. They felt, "We should participate as well." Apparently many more people came, but I don't know how many came. The initial meeting was eighty-five of the congregation. And then half and half. Split in half, and the chairman presiding was alone. SM: So the chairman decided it? JHS: No, no, the chairman didn't decide. Cast it again, decided again, so that then the other group yielded…four or five of them yielded, including me. I thought they should have it - finish. The vote went to the other side. Then the second one was several months later (I don't know the exact date) but they could not decide; I think they adjourned without any decision. That‘s what I was told. Then after that the people who continued to have the Korean Christian Fellowship kind of avoided confrontation. They avoided [having] another meeting, although they promised that they should have another meeting; they avoided this confrontation and then left the congregation to reorganize the Korean Christian Fellowship, outside. The original Korean Christian Fellowship remained there Mr. Daniel Kim and his supporters remained in that white house, and the other group left. SM: The group that wanted to keep the Korean Christian Fellowship? JHS: Yes. They didn't participate in this. I was in Korea; I went in Korea after the first meeting. Dr. [Y.B.] Kim also left, for Los Angeles, for quarter leave. Both of us was gone, and meantime Mr. Lee and Mr. Goc regrouped the group as the Korean Christian Fellowship of Minnesota, and claimed that they are the legitimate succeeder of the original [group]. SM: Was the name any different? JHS: Same. Then Daniel Kim's group continued, and they established the Korean Church of the Twin Cities. Then they both decided to divide the funds originally accumulated, equally. But the problem is, both of them claimed the legitimacy of the original church. I don't know it it's important - but eventually that would be important. So we always claimed that we are the legitimate succeeder. That was that. After the church is divided, then the society as a whole polarized. All of them are church participants; now there are two churches. So the community is polarized, according to these two churches. From then on, with the increasing numbers of the community Page 54 of 57

members, and increasing diversity of background and interests, it's changing. In the 1960s the majority of the community members are students and faculty. Now it's increasing numbers - the interest and background is very diverse among the community members. SM: What kinds of backgrounds were there? JHS: We'll see. Then, because of this reason, a number of interest groups organized. The first one is the Korean Medical Club (that's the physicians). Second one is the Korean Academy, organized by the graduate students who did not (many of them) participate in church activities. And then later, the Village Club; that was immigrants who did not attend a school here. The Middle Aged Club - it's middle age - but did not attend school here, but came from Korea. Then later, another club is organized, the Youth Club; this is undergraduate students, and perhaps senior high school students, who were born in Korea, raised in Korea, and came here to live. These fellows can speak Korean as well as English. And then another club is the Senior Citizens Club, or the Elders Club. These people were old people. Now there are quite a few seventy or eighty of them. That much I know. I don't know if there is more. But this is what [happened] in the 1970s. Lots of interest groups… now it's separated, you see? Throughout the seventies, gradually. I think this is the chronology, roughly, [in which] it occurred; I don't know exact years. Some of them still exist. The Korean Academy was interrupted. SM: What was the Korean Academy's function? A social function? JHS: Mainly academic, and about Korea, and so on. Graduate student academic functions, mainly. SM: About Korean culture? JHS: Culture, yes. This illustrates the interest groups. In the meantime, there are seven churches developing. Daniel Kim's church was split, after three years…the Korean Church of the Twin Cities. A group of people left, and then built a Methodist church. Then after they left, three years after, another conflict occurred in that church. I think you should see Dr. Juhn; he's a professor here. He was the president of the Korean Association in 1968 to 1969; you have it in the book. You should inquire about these people in that period. He's the one who is active in Daniel Kim's church - for six or seven years afterwards; he was there as one of the organizers, but he continued to be there after I left. I don't know what's happened, but they split twice, so that means something was going on. This split, actually, repeated itself. The first problem, newcomers coming in and oldtimers… There is some social problem that existed at the early stages. Communication, and so on. Those fellows who supported Daniel Kim was, in a sense, a kind of…people who were not established. They saw us as the establishment. Then three years later they became the establishment, and the newcomers came…the same kind of problem. It repeated itself; history repeated itself. I think this was mainly due to the change of people, newcomers coming in, and then felt different…when the newcomers become the majority, there is a problem. SM: So it's a matter, partly, of acculturation? Page 55 of 57

JHS: I think so. And it's a difference between these people who lived here long, and the people who come from Korea recently. There is a certain difference, I think the cultural difference developed between them, and this problem comes up…particularly religious activity and social activity, many aspects. I may not be expressing it correctly…but 'the feeling is there, this is a problem. Newcomers come in, and they didn't understand the old settlers; and old settlers didn't understand newcomers. There is a difficulty understanding each other. SM: Do newcomers usually socialize with each other, rather than the people that had been there longer? JHS: No, usually they do; but once a week you meet them…naturally, [you're more] likely to get together among the closer ones you know. This is unavoidable. People live under psychological stress, so to speak, because of language problems, because of the cultural difference. I think a certain stress is felt, and when they meet each other they feel free. They communicate. Intimacy develops. And naturally, to newcomers it's difficult to make friends, and it's easier to [be with] older friends, converse with each other. Probably that's the reason [for the] schism of the churches - history is repeated all the time, the same kind of problems in every church. I don't think there is any difference - not even different [in the eighties]. This [unclear] when we established the church. The reason we [unclear]… I envisioned it (and I discussed with the fellows) because I saw so many churches with problems in other cities. Something happens in the Washington area; two or three years later, in Philadelphia (Korean community), and two or three years later in St. Louis (where the larger group is), and two or three years later it happens here. And two or three years later, what happens here, happens in Madison, Wisconsin. The same thing, the exact pattern. I'm sure other areas are the same way. SM: Are there quite a few Koreans in Madison? JHS: Oh, sure. A small group… I don't know how many. Probably similar to the 1960s… we had here. Maybe. The same pattern. And yet, we knew…we can envision what's going to happen, yet it's very difficult to prevent. SM: There was a conscious effort to prevent it, then? JHS: Yes. The effort was there, but it's very difficult. Once it happens, it's very difficult to prevent. Now, I envision, in the 1980s, however, gradually, [a move] toward unity. I think that is going to happen in the eighties. The reason is, people have lived here long, and very much feel the same. We see less difference. SM: But there are still… JBS: Still coming, but it‘s the majority any more. SM: Oldtimers will always be the majority now. JHS: That's right. That happens, then it's the same. After living here for about ten years, they feel the same. Page 56 of 57

SM: Now the others will have to adapt to the majority view. JHS: That's right. They're the minority; they have to adapt to us, rather than we adapt to them. SM: So in the beginning the newcomers had more influence, as the real… JRS: Because they are the majority. Initially the majority was the students. Then later the majority (1970s) was the newcomers. Oldtimers never had the majority. But in the 1980s, the old settlers (ten years or more) will be the majority, and whoever comes, they will be the minority, and they have to follow the majority. I think that's the reason why reasonable unity will be established. But preventing this unity is the church; the church is the one now. Initially the church was good for the community, but I think there is a certain aspect of church [that] is detrimental to the unity here. SM: Is that because of the denominationalism? JHS: That's right. I feel that it's not helping, certainly. But the social trend will be there, though. Eventually, what will happen…the church will be unified, when the second generation comes around, if the Korean church continues to be existing. Why? Same problem. They have no reason to have so many churches. SM: Are the second generation pretty interested in the church? JHS: I doubt it. There has to be some movement, or force… Leadership has to be there, to lead in that direction. Otherwise, there won‘t be. It will be difficult, anyway. [End of interview]

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