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Interview with Sinmin and Betty Wu

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Sinmin Wu was born June 1, 1931, in the city of Yixing in Jiangsu Province, China. Betty Wu (Yun Aur) was born December 15, 1938, in the city of Tianjin, in Hebei Province. Both left China for Taiwan during the Communist Revolution in the 1940s. They were married in Taiwan in 1959 and soon left for Malaysia, where Sinmin became a teacher in a Chinese girls' high school. Their first child was born in Malaysia. Sinmin went to the United States in 1961 for graduate study in mathematics at Southern Illinois University. He received a master of arts degree and accepted a teaching position at the University of Minnesota, Morris, in 1965. Betty and their daughter arrived in Morris in 1966. Two additional children have been born to the family in the United States. SUBJECTS DISCUSSED: The Wus discuss the experience of Chinese Americans in small towns outside the Twin Cities area - their activities and sense of acceptance in university and community affairs - development of their children's identities in an area where few other Chinese live - and the role of Asian families in resettlement of a Vietnamese refugee family in Morris in late 1979 and 1980. COMMENTS ON INTERVIEW: This interview focused on acculturation in a small town as opposed to an urban area, on family life, and on the concerns of a transplanted Chinese family for the future of their children. It should be noted that although they have no worry about the Americanization of their children, they also want their children to know their own cultural heritage and language.

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Sinmin Wu Betty Wu Narrators Sarah Mason Interviewer December 2, 1979 The Wu’s Home Morris, Minnesota

Sarah Mason Sinmin Wu Betty Wu

- SM - SW - BW

SM: I’m talking to Sinmin Wu and Unar Wu, or Betty Wu as she’s called here, in Morris, Minnesota, on December 2, 1979. The interviewer is Sarah Mason and this is an interview conducted under the auspices of the Minnesota Historical Society. When did you arrive in Minnesota? Have you been here long? SW: I was here in 1965. September 1965. SM: I see. And had you lived in other states at all before this? SW: Yes, before I came over here I was living in Illinois for a while. SM: Oh. University of Illinois or . . .? SW: Southern Illinois. SM: Oh, I see. When did you first come to the United States? SW: The United States it was 1961. SM: I see. And when did you arrive here—in any part of the United States? BW: First . . . you mean first the year I came here? SM: Yes. BW: [Unclear.] It was 1966. SW: Six. 1966. 1

SM: 1966 [unclear]. BW: That’s [unclear]. SW: No, the year. BW: When we got right here. SW: No, the year. Yes. BW: In Morris. SW: Yes. SM: Oh, in Morris. Yes. Did you go to Illinois at all [unclear]? BW: Yes. Just very short visiting. Visiting there. SM: Oh, I see. What year? BW: A few days. SM: Oh. BW: Yes. SM: In 1966? BW: The same year. SM: Yes, I see. So all your children were born here or . . .? BW: No. When I came here first I brought my oldest one. And I think she was five years, wasn’t she? SW: Yes. Five. BW: Five. SM: Five years old. BW: Yes. Almost six years old. SM: Ah. 2

BW: Yes. I brought her along. Right at that time I had only one. SM: I see. Yes. And then the others were born in Morris? BW: Right. SM: I see. BW: The second one was born in Morris. SM: I see. BW: The last one, he was born in Lincoln, Nebraska. SM: Oh. And how did that happen? Did you go there for while or . . .? SW: Yes, I took leave and we went to the Lincoln University of Nebraska there. SM: And what year was that in? SW: That was in 1969, 1970 . . . or 1970-71. BW: 1969-70. 1970. SW: Yes. BW: Part of it and 1971. SW: Yes. [Unclear]. BW: Yes. A little more than two years. SW: Yes. SM: Oh. Two years you were there. I see. Was that pretty different from living in Morris? A little different weather, I suppose. [Chuckles] BW: Not really. SW: No. It’s [unclear]. BW: Only the weather maybe. SW: Little milder and the city is a little bit bigger. 3

BW: Right. [Chuckles] A little bit bigger. SM: Oh, yes. SW: A little bit more traffic. [Chuckles] SM: And this was in Lincoln, Nebraska, wasn’t it. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: Well, that was also a university community, I suppose. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: Yes. SW: Yes, yes. SM: And did you find that was pretty much the same in terms of your interaction with the other professors or . . .? SW: Yes. It’s a bigger university. SM: Bigger. SW: There are more people you have to associate with and . . . yes. I think it’s about the same. SM: Yes. Well, the two families I talked to yesterday both are university families. SW: Yes. SM: And they seem to indicate that they felt very well accepted both in the town and the university community here in Morris. And I don’t know if you feel the same way or . . .? SW: Yes, we do. We do. Yes. The townspeople are nice. The university as we have seen it’s . . . it grows up then from small into the now . . . SM: Oh, yes. You came into it very early. SW: There’s a lot more people [unclear]. We are kind of used to the both sides of town living in the university community and the regular. SM: I see. 4

BW: You know, when you’re living in a small town [unclear] I think you are really getting also [unclear]. SM: Oh. BW: And after, you know, big cities, when you once in a while you’ll go there for, you know, visiting, shopping, or, you know . . . you know [unclear]. SM: Do you go to the Twin Cities at all or . . .? BW: Yes. Quite often, generally during summertime. SM: Oh, yes. It’s easier then. BW: Yes, we like camping, you know, [unclear]. SM: Oh, do you go camping? BW: [Unclear] we bring the children [unclear]. SM: Ah. I see. So do you have friend in the Twin Cities? BW: We have some. SM: Yes. BW: Right. SM: Do you have any relatives here? BW: We don’t have any relatives [unclear]. SM: Yes. Any relatives in the country? BW: No. SM: Just you. BW: Just [unclear]. SM: Oh. SW: [Chuckles] SM: Is that pretty hard on you or . . .? 5

BW: It’s really hard. SM: Yes. Do you return to [unclear] in China or Taiwan or . . .? BW: Last summer [unclear]. SW: Yes, last . . . yes. BW: Last summer, last year summer, not past summer. SW: 1978. Yes. BW: Oh, yes. SM: 1978. BW: Yes. We . . . the whole family [unclear] we went to [unclear] Taiwan for a couple months. SM: Yes. Oh, that’s nice. BW: It was nice. SM: Oh, yes. BW: Yes. SM: Are your parents . . .? BW: Yes we visited my parents, my brothers and [unclear]. SM: Oh. And do you have close family that you visited, too? SW: Yes, I have a sister and a brother-in-law, their family there. SM: I see. SW: And that’s all. Yes. One sister. SM: Oh, your parents aren’t living? SW: No. My parents both passed away. SM: Oh, I see. 6

SW: Yes. I have a couple of brothers . . . one brother, as a matter of fact. One brother passed away and a couple sisters in the China mainland. SM: Oh. Oh, I see. So you just have one sister left. I see. Maybe you could . . . each of you tell a little bit about your background in China, your family background, what part of China you came from. SW: Yes. The place I was born is pretty close to . . . between the Shanghai and the Nanjing, probably you’ve heard of those big cities. SM: Oh. Yes. SW: Most foreigners to get there and the first place they land is Shanghai. SM: Yes. SW: The big city in China, [unclear] China. SM: Yes. SW: It’s between there. It’s a kind of a . . . not a real rural area like Morris, but it’s a small town. SM: Oh, I see. SW: Yes. My family, father was a kind of a businessman, but he retired a long time ago. SM: I see. SW: Before the Second World War he retired. SM: Oh. SW: That’s why he passed away a long time ago. SM: I see. He was old. SW: I was a younger one in the family. SM: I see. I see. SW: So I left the China mainland in 1947. SM: I see. SW: Oh no, wait. 7

BW: 1948. SW: 1948. 1948, yes. Before the Communists took over China. SM: Oh, yes. SW: I went to Taiwan. SM: I see. SW: So I received a college education in Taiwan. SM: I see. SW: And after that I got changed . . . I taught in the college a couple years. SM: In Taiwan? SW: Yes. Then I went to Malaysia. SM: Oh. I see. SW: Yes. It’s a . . . you know the place on the . . . SM: Nanyang University? BW: [Unclear]. SW: No, not Nanyang University. SM: Oh. Not Nanyang. SW: It was a different place. SM: Oh. Yes. SW: Nanyang University is in Singapore, they’re different countries now. SM: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Right. SW: They separated into two different countries. SM: Right. 8

SW: Where we went was Malaysia. SM: I see. SW: It’s a bigger . . . little bigger . . . it’s a little bit northern to the . . . SM: North of . . .? SW: North of Singapore. Yes. Just the coast that bordered [unclear]. SM: What was the name of that college? SW: No, they’re not colleges. SM: Oh, it wasn’t a college. SW: It was a high school there. SM: I see. SW: Yes. SM: Well, what was the name of . . .? SW: That’s . . . BW: Penang. SM: Ping Nam? SW: Penang Chinese girls’ high school. SM: I see. SW: It’s an overseas Chinese high school. SM: Oh. BW: [Unclear]. SW: Yes, that is a pretty . . . well accepted . . . they receive a Chinese education there. SM: I see.

9

SW: Of course, we use English to teach the mathematics, but they have a lot of Chinese courses there. SM: Yes. SW: [Unclear]. History, Chinese, and other things. SM: I see. SW: That was the 1960s. Now I think [since] I go there that it’s been changed. SM: Oh, it’s changed now. SW: Yes. SM: So overseas Chinese from all over the world would send their . . .? SW: No, over there. SM: Just [unclear]. SW: There is almost forty percent of the population was Chinese, overseas Chinese. SM: Oh, yes. SW: Overseas Chinese. Yes. SM: I see. That was a boarding school then or they came by day? SW: A boarding school. Girls . . . about twelve hundred students or something. SM: Oh. SW: It’s very big. BW: But only senior girls there. SW: Yes. SM: Oh, seniors. Right. SW: The seniors, yes. SM: Yes. 10

SW: Yes, senior high. It’s big . . . pretty big. Not only the people are the students from Malaysia, from Singapore, from Thailand, from those places they prohibited the Chinese education. SM: Oh. Yes. SW: They all came over to there. SM: I see. SW: So [unclear]. So they have . . . why they have twelve hundred students. SM: I see. You said they prohibited Chinese education in those other places? SW: Oh, yes. It’s against . . . not like us. You see, the political situation in Southeast China is kind of a strange way . . . they . . . I don’t know. They called that Russian allies or whatever they call it, they . . . even though they have a forty percent Chinese population, but they don’t want the Chinese people to learn the Chinese. SM: Yes. Yes. Do they come from Vietnam, too? SW: Oh, yes. All over the peninsula, mostly come to go there. At that time they were allowed to teach Chinese there. SM: I see. SW: But now I don’t know whether the Chinese [unclear] most or some from Indonesia. SM: Oh. Yes. SW: So all over. That’s why they had twelve hundred students there. SM: Yes. Right. SW: Because all the girls . . . SM: I see. Then there was a boys’ school somewhere, too? SW: Yes. Same city. In the same city, the boy’s school. SM: Oh, in the same city. I see. BW: And on the same street, remember? SW: Oh, yes. 11

SM: Oh. BW: Same street [unclear] the boys’ there sponsored by the . . . SW: [Unclear]. Yes. I remember that was sponsored by the Buddhism church [unclear]. SM: Oh, these were Buddhist schools? SW: No, that’s the . . . SM: Oh, the boy’s school. SW: Just the regular one. SM: Oh, I see. SW: The boy one, the boy’s school was sponsored by the church, the Buddhism church. SM: Oh, I see. But the girl’s one was just a private school? SW: Yes, private. SM: It wasn’t sponsored by a church or something. SW: No, no. Private. SM: Yes. Let’s see. Were you married then and did you go there, too? SW: Yes, we married before we went there. SM: I see. SW: We married . . . we married in Taiwan. SM: Married in Taiwan. SW: Yes. SM: And what year? In the 1960s? SW: 1959? BW: Twenty years ago it will be. SW: Yes, 1959. Twenty years ago. 12

SM: 1959. SW: Yes, in 1959. BW: [Chuckles] SM: I see. Yes. So you both went together to this school. Was your first child born then or . . .? SW: Yes. Yes, she was born there. SM: In Malaysia? SW: In Malaysia. SM: Oh, I see. And what about your family background in China? Which part of China did you come from? BW: I was from the [unclear]. SM: Canton? No. BW: [Unclear]. SM: Oh. [unclear]. BW: The city. Very close to Peking. SM: I see. BW: I think about twenty-some miles from Peking. SM: I see. Oh. BW: [Unclear] also is a very big, large city. SM: Oh, that’s big, too. BW: A lot of businesses I think in China . . . was second highest, second biggest, the . . . SW: Yes, that’s kind of a . . . BW: [Unclear] in China. SM: Oh. 13

BW: That’s the . . . SW: Exporting port, the part in Northern China, they receive all kinds of like incoming goods and the goods ship out there, kind of like . . . SM: Oh, is this Tianjin? SW: Tianjin, yes. SM: Oh, [unclear]. SW: Tianjin, yes. SM: I see. That’s a coast port. SW: Yes, a port. Yes. Yes. SM: I see. Well, that’s interesting. BW: Some people call it second to Shanghai. SM: Oh, yes. It’s very big. BW: Yes, it’s big. Yes, right. SM: Yes. You know, I guess we didn’t get the name of that one you were [unclear]. SW: Oh. [unclear] this small town [unclear] I think is . . . I don’t know, but the other day I was in the library to look at the world map atlas and so they have the spelling . . . SM: They’re changing so many . . . SW: I, dash . . . [unclear]. S-H-I-N, something like this, G. Something like . . . I’m not sure. SM: Oh. I see. SW: [Chuckles] Yes, usually we . . . SM: [Unclear] it looks like. SW: Yes. [Unclear – I Shing or I Sheng?]. SM: I Shang. Yes. Did they spell it with an A, do you think? S-H-A-N-G? Or I? 14

SW: I forget. Yes, A-N. Probably I Shang. SM: Yes. Okay. SW: Or [unclear] H-S. SM: Oh. SW: H-S-I-N-G, something like that. SM: Oh, yes. Okay. And what kind of work did your father do [unclear]? BW: My father, he’s a congressman now. SM: Oh. BW: He also is a professor in a college. SM: I see. Oh [unclear]. SW: He teaches arts and Chinese drama. BW: Arts. SM: Oh, is this his here? SW: This is the one he painted, yes. SM: Oh. [Unclear]. SW: And that one also over there. SM: [Gasps] Oh. BW: He also . . . he’s a writer. He wrote [unclear]. SM: Oh, I see. BW: About Chinese history, and Chinese drama, Chinese arts also. SM: Oh. Yes. So he’s teaching in Taiwan then? BW: In Taiwan. SM: Oh, which college is that? 15

BW: That’s [unclear]. SW: I don’t know what the English name is. SM: [Unclear]. BW: The one [unclear]. SW: The one college . . . the one college in . . . around Taipei, around there. SM: Oh. I can just spell out the Chinese name [unclear]. SW: [Unclear] college. SM: [Unclear]. SW: Chinese culture college, I don’t know. But there’s an appropriate name for it. SM: [Unclear]. SW: Yes. SM: [Unclear]. SW: Yes, [unclear]. Yes. The college, yes. SM: I see. That’s a public . . . a government school? SW: No, it’s a private college. BW: Private. SM: Private college. SW: I assume they do have an English name, but we [chuckles] I’ve never . . . I don’t know any . .. SM: Well, this is okay. [Chuckles] Yes. Well, did he teach in the mainland before the 1940s or . . .? BW: No. No. I don’t think he taught in . . . SM: He didn’t in China. I see. 16

BW: He was a congressman in China mainland already, I know. SM: Oh. I see. BW: That was thirty years ago. SM: I see. In the [unclear] area? BW: Right. SM: Yes. I see. Then your father is a little younger than your father was. SW: Oh, a lot younger. [Chuckles] SM: A lot younger. BW: I’m the oldest one in the family. SM: Oh, I see. BW: But I think my father is sixty-two, around that age. SM: I see. Yes. But he’s a fairly young . . . BW: He looks very young. SM: Does he? BW: People never believe . . . last year we went there, too. My Sinmin stands with my father and it looks just like brothers! [Chuckles] SM: Oh! [Chuckles] SW: Yes, I have gray hair and he doesn’t. BW: Because my father hardly didn’t have any gray hair. SM: Oh. That’s just amazing at sixty-two. Yes. BW: Sixty-two. And then, yes, he walks very, you know, quick. And then sometimes he does exercise. SM: Oh.

17

SW: Yes, I think mostly because he’s, you know, he does . . . actually, every day he gets up real early, about five thirty or something . . . BW: No matter how late, he . . . he went to bed. SM: I see. SW: Yes, he does exercise every morning. BW: He gets up . . . yes. Early morning, five, five thirty. SM: Oh, yes. That keeps you healthy, I guess. BW: Yes, every day. [Chuckles] SM: I see. That’s interesting. Well, those are very nice paintings, too. Yes. BW: I think he told us that when he was five years old, he started to just . . . taught by himself. SM: Yes. Oh. BW: He never went to school, you know, to learn this kind of thing. SM: Yes. I see. He was a natural . . . BW: [Unclear] natural, yes. SM: Yes. They’re very nice. BW: When he draws the picture [unclear] he will use his left hand. SM: Oh, he does? BW: Yes. SM: Is he left handed? BW: When he was born, he was left handed. SM: He always was. BW: But [unclear] my grandpa didn’t like him to use his left hand. SM: Oh. But he could . . .? 18

BW: He can use his right hand to do anything but the painting. SM: Oh. BW: [Chuckles] Isn’t that funny? SM: That’s interesting. So he adapted his right hand to most things, but . . . BW: Right. Yes. SM: Oh, well I’m glad his father didn’t make him stop painting with his left hand. [Chuckles] BW: And this horse, I think was . . . when we were almost leaving from Taiwan. SW: Yes. SM: Oh, he gave that to you? BW: To come back to the United States. And then he says that oh, maybe I will draw something for you. I think [unclear] you did for me those country girls I have. And I have some other [unclear] horse, I like horses. I always like horses. He says okay. So right away I think one morning he got up early and did some exercise. After that he started to paint a horse. SM: Oh. He just painted it in . . .? BW: It maybe only took . . . took him about three hours to paint these things. SM: Oh. Amazing. SW: And the way the Chinese people painted, the classic way, I mean . . . SM: Yes. SW: Paint the horse in this kind of a type. SM: Yes. SW: Different from the modern . . . I mean the painting. SM: Yes. SW: The modern painting is more like realistic, realistic to what the horse looks like. SM: Yes. Right. 19

SW: But they . . . the classic one, they just . . . SM: The style of the art. SW: Yes, style and the spirit as we see the horse running. It isn’t really . . .

SM: Yes. BW: Because of my children, when my Daddy finished this picture, my children asked him, what about . . . how come this horse, you know, the head looks bigger than the body, or something like that. SM: [Chuckles] BW: The body looks so short. SM: [Chuckles] They . . . hadn’t they seen much Chinese painting? Or just the horse was what . . .? BW: You mean my children? SM: Yes. BW: They didn’t see it too much. SM: Yes. Yes. How did they like Taiwan? Did they enjoy the trip? BW: Oh, they liked it very much. SM: Yes. BW: I remember yesterday Lisa, “Mom, why don’t we go back to China again?” SM: Oh. Yes. BW: They really enjoy it. SM: Do they speak Chinese? BW: Oh, that’s the question. SM: [Chuckles]

20

BW: [Chuckles] They do. They do speak. But [unclear] they have to, you know, like if when you [unclear] Chinese standing here, my friend here. SM: Yes. BW: And then they speak Chinese. They will answer. SM: Oh, they do answer you in Chinese then. BW: Yes. But usually in the home I always speak to them in Chinese. SM: In Chinese, I see. BW: But when they answer to you, they use English. SM: But they understand anyway. BW: They always understand what I’m saying. SW: Yes. Sure. SM: And they can speak it. BW: They can, yes. SM: Do you speak to them in Chinese or English or . . .? SW: Mixed up sometimes. [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] SW: Some . . . mostly Chinese. SM: Oh, mostly Chinese. Yes. Well, do they feel pretty much as though they’re American or do they seem pretty aware of their Chinese heritage, too, or . . .? SW: We’re trying to . . . tell them some of our Chinese heritage. We are not worrying about them being American. SM: Oh, yes. SW: In America there’s a lot of changes for coming to [unclear]. SM: Because you need to work. Yes. 21

SW: But it seems to us it’s good for them to know more about it. SM: Yes. SW: So yes, we learned lots of different . . . I mean the descendants from different countries here, they have all kinds of festivals to bring up to the young generations about their own heritage. Like German people, they have Oktoberfest festival. SM: Oh, yes. I think [unclear]. SW: Yes, the other day I saw a newspaper sent out to us from someplace mentioning Ok . . . Ok . .. SM: Oktoberfest. SW: Oktoberfest, whatever it is . . . the name of that is, the German festival. Same thing, some kind of thing like this. SM: Yes. SW: So I think it’s not bad for them to know more than one kind of a culture and . . . yes. SM: Oh, yes. Sure. SW: In particular, nowadays, it’s kind of a . . . and in the United States we have all kinds of people from all countries all over the world. SM: Yes. SW: So it’s kind of nice for them to know. Yes. SM: Well, it seems to me here in Morris from what my husband has told me, he came from a Norwegian immigrant family. SW: Yes. That’s right, yes. SM: That it seems as though people here are very aware of immigrants because their father or grandfather was an immigrant. SW: That’s right, yes. SM: Well, have your children ever experienced any name calling or anything in the school? Or has it been pretty . . .? SW: Yes. I think a little. 22

SM: A little bit. SW: Once in a while, the little kids, they are teasing each other. SM: Yes. SW: I think that doesn’t mean anything, just the kids . . . kind of a type thing, you know. SM: Yes. I think that happens [unclear]. SW: Yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. BW: Yes, and of course they look different. SW: Yes. SM: Yes. BW: Black hair, you know, small eyes, and the skin different color. SM: [Unclear]. Well, are there certain years that’s more prevalent, say about second grade to junior high school or does it happen . . .? It doesn’t happen in the high school, does it? BW: Well, mostly like in . . . SW: Some . . . SM: Maybe. I don’t know. BW: I think no. My youngest one who is in third grade. SM: Oh, yes. BW: From . . . once in a while she complains, she says, mom, some boy teasing her or calls her Chinese or something like that. You are Chinese. SM: [Chuckles] Nothing wrong with that. SW: [Unclear]. BW: But the . . . the second one, Lisa, I know was teased in sixth grade. SM: Yes. 23

BW: I don’t remember if she . . . I think last year she never complained anymore. SM: Oh. I see. BW: Probably the age, I think. SM: Yes. SW: Yes. I think . . . yes. BW: [Unclear] third, fourth grade. SW: That’s a . . . BW: Right. SM: Maybe that’s the worst [unclear]. BW: Yes. SM: Have they ever said anything in high school? You have some in high school, too? SW: She just graduated last year. BW: Yes. SM: Oh. SW: She’s in college now [unclear]. SM: Oh, I see. Let’s see . . . BW: When . . . I think when Ellen, our oldest one . . . SM: Yes, Ellen is the oldest? BW: Yes. SM: Yes. BW: [Unclear] when first we came to Morris, by that time maybe only . . . like here townspeople, they . . . they didn’t see too . . . too many, you know. SW: Yes. 24

SM: Oh, you were among the earlier Asians to . . .? SW: No. Fangs came here first. SM: I see. SW: Then they moved out for a while. BW: Right, but Fangs . . . you know what? Fangs came here first. SW: But then they don’t . . . BW: But by that time they didn’t have children . . . SW: They didn’t have kids [unclear]. BW: . . . who went to school. SM: Oh. Sure. So yours maybe were . . . BW: So they left for two years or three years. SW: Two years, two, three years, yes. BW: Three years. SW: That was for three years. SM: Yes. BW: Ellen . . . I think Ellen was first to just . . . [Chuckles] SW: Yes. Start from Kindergarten. SM: I see. BW: Right. Yes. SM: She was the first in Kindergarten. BW: Right. I think . . . SM: Yes, I think some of the Koreans came about the same time . . . SW: I think the [unclear] came the same year as we did. 25

BW: [Unclear] came. SM: Oh. BW: Yes. They have one child about the same age as Ellen. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: Maybe it was a different school or . . .? SW: Same school. SM: Same school. BW: Same school, not the same class though. SW: But they didn’t start from Kindergarten, I think Peggy didn’t start in Kindergarten. BW: Oh, right. SW: Yes. SM: Oh. Yes. BW: They didn’t start from Kindergarten. SM: I see. Well, it is . . . it seems to be hardest when you are the first one. [Chuckles] BW: Right. Well, I think that . . . well, but at that time Ellen didn’t know too much English. SM: Oh, yes. So that might be different. BW: Right. Sometimes when she came back from school, you know, she complained. SM: Oh. BW: She said something about it, you know. SM: In Kindergarten she would. BW: She wouldn’t like some boys or . . . [Chuckles] SM: Yes. What do you think your children will see as their identity when they are maybe even a young adult, whenever people start thinking about this more, do they see themselves as Asian 26

Americans, or Chinese Americans, or is it too early to . . .? Let’s see. How old is your oldest one? BW: Eighteen. SM: Oh. Is she in college this year? BW: She’s in college. SM: Away from here? BW: She’s in Northfield. SM: Oh, at Saint Olaf? BW: Right. SM: Oh, I see. There seem to be several who have gone to Saint Olaf. SW: Oh, yes. Quite a few from Morris. BW: Right. SM: Oh, yes. BW: And this year, four girls from Morris. SM: Oh, four girls from Morris. BW: Last year I think that one girl and four boys. [Chuckles] SW: One girl, four boys. SM: Oh. Morris is well represented there then. [Chuckles] We used to live for two years in Northfield. BW: Yes, a really nice town. SM: Just down the street from Saint Olaf. BW: A beautiful college. SM: It’s very pretty, yes. BW: Beautiful looking campus. 27

SM: Well, are there many Asian students there? Or . . . not too many when I was there, but . . . SW: No, I don’t think so. BW: I don’t think there are many. SM: Not so much. BW: No. SW: No. It seems to be [unclear]. BW: I think there are some Japanese students. SW: Yes. SM: Oh. BW: One . . . one girl from Taiwan. SW: Yes. No more than ten, I think. Not . . . not including them. SM: Oh. SW: Yes. Some are foreigners. I think about ten foreign students and . . . BW: Maybe not that many. SW: No. SM: Not very many then. BW: But she likes it. SM: Does she? SW: Oh, yes. SM: Yes. BW: But she always thinks she’s Chinese. SM: She does. 28

BW: Yes [unclear]. SW: She [unclear]. SM: More than the other children? BW: Well, at her age, and she understands and she . . . she knows. SM: Oh, but she thinks of herself as Chinese. Just plain Chinese, or does she think of herself as Chinese American? That’s kind of a fine . . . line, I know. SW: No, she’ll say, yes, Chinese American. She knows where she is from. SM: Yes. Right. SW: That’s right. Yes. SM: Some of the second generation I talked to in the Cities that are Chinese American, they say they have a hard time associating with Chinese students from China, since they don’t speak as well or write or . . . SW: Yes, I think that’s become a problem. SM: Yes. SW: Over all the university campuses all over the country. SM: Yes. Right. SW: When we were in college here, graduate school, we faced the same kind of problem. SM: Yes. SW: I’ve got a friend, close friend, he . . . he wasn’t born in the United States. He was born in Australia. SM: Oh. SW: But he’d been here long enough, he went to high school and college and graduate school. So somehow that . . . when you look at something, you have a different point of view. SM: Yes. SW: It’s like a different point of view. And that’s not a big problem but it’s just the way you look at . . . because the basic educations are slightly different. 29

SM: Right. Yes. SW: So that’s the way they are. SM: Yes, right. A different kind of childhood. SW: Yes. And also another problem is the language problem. SM: Yes. SW: Most of the kids raised here, they speak fluent English and the foreign students, somehow that is a little bit difficult for them. SM: Right. SW: First then when they come over here. You know, that’s also a kind of a barricade between them, a complication. SM: Yes. Right. Well, some of the Asian Americans claim that . . . these were those who had grown up here, that they felt embarrassed when they were with the Chinese students from China because sometimes they made fun of them a little bit for their bad Chinese. [Chuckles] SW: Well, it happens [unclear] in a while. It does even to me to not [unclear] . . . SM: But . . . I shouldn’t think it would be because then they can speak better English. [Chuckles] BW: [Unclear]. SM: Yes. SW: Yes [unclear]. BW: Like everyone will do that. SM: Oh, she wouldn’t feel . . .? BW: No. No, she wouldn’t. SW: Yes, so we always . . . tell them, so why are you laughing at them who can’t speak good English? On the other hand, you can’t speak good Chinese, that’s the same thing. SM: Right. [Chuckles] It works both ways. SW: Yes. It’s the same thing. Yes. 30

BW: I think that this morning we said to our Lisa and Mary . . . SW: Yes. BW: When they went to church . . . SM: Yes. BW: They both joined the church choir. SM: Oh. Is that the Federated Church? SW: No. First Lutheran. SM: Oh, the Lutheran. Yes. BW: They [unclear]. SW: Yes. BW: Had some Chinese [unclear]. And then they wanted us to translate to them. SM: Oh. Oh. BW: And then they [unclear] you know, Chinese. And they couldn’t . . . some where they couldn’t speak very well. And then I said, Now, you know, so sometimes you guys are learning above me. SM: Oh, yes. [Chuckles] BW: So there’s some, you know, words that they cannot say exactly like you. SM: Sure. Yes. BW: Now they couldn’t understand . . . SM: What was it they wanted you to translate? Something they brought in the church? BW: Right. SW: Yes, church . . . something about the Christmas, something . . . yes. SM: Oh. 31

BW: Christmas song. SW: Yes. BW: They sing the December [unclear]. SM: Oh. Oh, and it was in Chinese? SW: Yes. Yes. SM: Oh. BW: Yes, see, because there are only two Chinese children in the church. SW: In that church. SM: I see. So they asked them to . . . BW: Right. SM: I see. BW: When they called me they asked me for . . . whether they . . . can you find some Chinese dress or Chinese clothes for them. SM: Yes. Oh. BW: You know, when they sing a Chinese song. SM: Oh, so they have to sing in a program. BW: Right. SM: Oh, I see. BW: [Unclear]. SM: Did they just join this on their own? Or do you belong to the church or just the children joined? BW: No. SW: No, the children. SM: Oh. 32

SW: We give them a choice, whatever they want to join. BW: Right. SM: I see. SW: They don’t have to follow us. SM: Yes. SW: Yes. That’s right. SM: So the two of them decided to join the Lutheran church? SW: Yes. SM: I see. BW: They just . . . yes. They just go there every Sunday, you know, they . . . SW: They have Sunday School. BW: Yes, Sunday School. SM: Oh. Oh, they aren’t maybe members, are they? BW: They are not members yet. SW: Not yet. [Unclear]. SM: I see. They just go. BW: They just started. SM: I see. Do they have some friends that go there or . . .? BW: They . . . SM: How did they happen to . . .? BW: They make friends very easy. SW: [Chuckles] 33

SM: Oh. BW: They have a lot of friends. The [unclear] they brought . . . oh, I don’t know how many friends. Some friends even stay over here for supper, for lunch. SM: I see. So they bring their friends here. BW: So then this morning after church they . . . I think same church. SM: Yes. BW: And then they’re invited, I think, by their friends to go, you know, cutting some Christmas tree. [Chuckles] SM: I see. Oh, yes. Right. So they bring their friends here pretty freely and [unclear]. SW: In and out. [Laughing] We don’t know which way . . . which . . . I don’t pay attention to them. BW: [Chuckles] We . . . sometimes I don’t even know . . . can’t tell how many! I hear the noise and say, “Oh, how many there?” [Chuckles] SM: Does that bother you or . . .? BW: No, not really. I really like them. SM: Yes. SW: No, it’s pretty good. Most of their girlfriends . . . they are girls that come over. SM: Yes. BW: Because we have all girls. SM: Oh, you’re all girl, I see. BW: Right. SM: So they’re friends with the girls then. BW: The girls are really nice. We like them. [Chuckles] SM: I see. That’s nice. Well, that brings up one thing I did want to ask you about particularly, and that is that I talked to some second generation whose parents I guess left China about the same time you did, in the 1940s. 34

SW: Yes. SM: But these are people that are now . . . are maybe in their late twenties, the children. And they grew up in the Twin Cities and so on. And their parents were professionals, too. But they said that their parents really discouraged them from making friends at school. Or especially from staying behind . . . especially their mother, they said, none who said father. But their mother especially didn’t want them to stay behind for any extracurricular things where they might meet boys, they said. [Chuckles] SW: Mmmm-hmmm. SM: And that . . . but they thought, too, they didn’t like them to make too many friends outside the family. BW: Of course, for me, when they’re making friends . . . SM: Yes. BW: I have to ask about the friend. SM: Oh. BW: Who is the friend? And then I like to know what their parents do. SM: Sure. And that’s certainly understandable. BW: Right. SM: Yes. BW: And like Lisa had some friend before, last year, year or two. And later I found out that friend, you know . . . and somehow, I . . . I don’t agree so much. SM: Oh. BW: So I said something to Lisa. You don’t have to only stick with her. You can make some other friends. SM: Yes. Yes. BW: So Lisa knows what I mean, so now I’m glad she’s not always sticking with her. SM: Yes. 35

BW: Yes. SW: Yes. And as a parent, we just want to give them correct guidance. SM: Yes. SW: We don’t force them to do anything. But we have the obligation to tell them what is right, what is wrong. BW: Right. SW: Before they can make their own judgment. SM: That’s certainly true. SW: Yes, so that’s why we . . . we tell them, you make friends, alright, but you don’t stick with always one. You should make more friends and see more people. SM: That’s certainly good advice. [Chuckles] SW: [Chuckles] SM: Well, what I’m interested in, too, is the process of adapting to the new environment here in Morris or the United States. And how your upbringing of your children would be somewhat different, I imagine, from the way you were brought up. Somewhat similar and somewhat different. SW: Oh, certainly. Entirely different. Entirely different, yes. SM: Entirely different. SW: Yes. Well, there is stricter discipline in Chinese families, and particularly old fashioned ones. SM: All what? SW: Old fashioned ones. SM: Old fashioned. Yes. BW: [Chuckles] SW: Yes. So the children have to listen to whatever their parents say. Of course, the parents won’t give them wrong direction, but somehow it’s a little bit too rigid sometimes, I see. 36

SM: Yes. SW: Here, we give them enough freedom, but we still give them advice what you should do, what you shouldn’t. SM: Yes. SW: Until they are old enough to know what is right, what is wrong. SM: Right. So you’ve somewhat modified the Chinese way of bringing up children to fit in the new environment here. SW: That’s right. Yes, certainly, it seems to me . . . in fact, I don’t like some new parents too much freedom given to them entirely. BW: [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] SW: Give them everything to them. I don’t think it’s correct though. As a father, I can see . . . because they are not mature enough to make judgments, you have to tell them. Because parents usually they have more experience than the young ones. SM: Sure. SW: Until they are big enough they can make judgments. Like our older one, oldest one, now we are just like friends, we give her a little bit friendly suggestion, because she is big enough. She knows what is right, what is wrong. SM: Yes. I see. BW: She is a nice girl. SW: Oh, sure. She’s . . . sure. She’s . . . SM: She’s at Saint Olaf. SW: Yes. She’s very good. Yes. SW: We’re all proud of her. BW: She always . . . helps to [unclear]. SM: Oh. 37

SW: Yes. Now the younger ones seem too young. You don’t know. For instance, like some time ago, in the newspaper it said the kids are smoking in the restrooms in the school. SM: Oh, yes. SW: Yes, I don’t think this is right. They are too young to smoke. BW: That’s why I just say that I didn’t . . . SM: Right. SW: Of course, I’m smoking. I don’t . . . SM: Right. It’s not very healthy [unclear]. SW: I don’t say, you don’t smoke. SM: Yes. SW: But you have to . . . until you are old enough [unclear] then you can do. Or drink. SM: Yes. SW: Yes. We don’t drink, definitely. But we don’t . . . against anything like this, but they say you should be big enough. It’s too young to start this kind of thing. But that’s just an example. Yes. So sometimes, I certainly think it’s necessary and appropriate to give them some kind of advice. SM: Right. I think that’s certainly necessary. What about when American children are sometimes paid to work at home? SW: Yes. SM: Has that ever been an issue in your family or do your children mention that? Or they don’t expect that? SW: Mmmm. Not very strong. Like our oldest . . . BW: They . . . sometimes they mention that. SW: Yes. Not strong. BW: But they’ve . . . they never said too much. SM: Yes. 38

SW: Yes. I told them . . . yes. BW: They just say, oh, some friends, when they did something, work for their mother or their dad and then they will get some, you know, pay from them. SM: Yes. BW: But certainly they didn’t ask. SM: Yes. Or do they think it’s a little strange that their friends get this? [Chuckles] Or they just see it as the way around here or . . .? BW: But I think that they . . . they do think that’s strange. SM: Yes. They think it just happens. BW: Yes, right, just happens. SM: Yes. SW: Now when we . . . .occasionally we explain to them if the time comes, after the right occasion we explain a little bit to them, why we don’t emphasize on that kind of a type of style, say, you work then you pay, no work, no pay, that kind of thing. Yes, it seems to me it’s kind of a... SM: It’s turns to a trap, I think. [Chuckles] SW: Yes, becoming the employee and employer, the contracted style. That’s not . . . it’s . . . BW: For the family. [Chuckles] SW: Yes, it seems to me it’s kind of a close relationship, family relationship, sometimes they will damage that kind of relationship. You shouldn’t over-emphasize on that kind of type of thing. SM: Right. SW: So we do give them sometimes . . . if the time comes, it’s the right time, right occasion, we give some money for the . . . if they work, you know, something like this. SM: Yes. Well, for something they need. SW: That’s right. Yes. Sometimes they say, “Oh, I need something.” “Oh,” I say, “Then you . . . you asked for something already, we bought you something. Now you need something, okay.” 39

SM: [Chuckles] SW: I just give them a little bit of chance. “Well, too much leaves outside, you help out, I’ll think about something for you.” SM: [Chuckles] SW: That kind of thing. Not in a . . . strictly say, “You have to work and then I pay thirty cents an hour,” that kind of thing. SM: Yes. SW: I don’t think it’s too good. SM: They have a little give and take. SW: That’s right. [Unclear] I’d say, yes. I think that would damage the kin relationship between the kinds and family and the parents. SM: Yes. Yes. Well, do your children see your family relationship as a little closer than some of the other families around or do they say anything about that? Or the relationship of parents to children, do they think it’s a little different in other families? BW: I don’t think that they ever say different. SM: They don’t. BW: But I think they really think that they have a nice family. SM: They do. SW: They always . . . BW: They’re really close to family. SM: Yes. BW: Like my oldest one, she is far away from us. SM: Yes. BW: You know, she calls me very often. SM: Does she? 40

BW: Yesterday I just got a letter from her. SM: Oh. This the one at Saint Olaf. BW: You know, little tiny things she will let us know. SM: Oh, that’s nice. BW: In fact, yesterday’s letter she said, “Mommy, if you have time, can you send me some Christmas lights and Christmas . . .?” SM: Oh, to decorate her room? BW: I think they did . . . she didn’t say what she wants to use . . . for about that. SM: Oh, I see. Yes. BW: I imagine maybe they want . . . SM: Celebrate a little bit, I suppose. BW: Right. And next she says it’s very expensive down there. [Chuckles] SM: Oh. BW: [Unclear]. SM: Yes. Would they break, I wonder? BW: So that’s what I’m thinking now. [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] What is she majoring in? Or has she decided? That may be too soon. Does she have an idea of what she’d like to study? BW: Maybe it’s kind of early to say. SM: Yes, she’s just a freshman. BW: Now she is taking some chemistry, math, those kind of . . . SM: Oh, she tends towards the sciences? BW: Right. 41

SM: That’s one thing I am always a little curious about. So many Asians are in the sciences and I didn’t know whether the language makes them shy . . . .it wouldn’t be for second generation, but whether language is a factor they shy away from social sciences or whether . . . why is it? [Chuckles] Why are so many in the sciences? SW: Hmmm, maybe because the first generation, most of us are in the science area. SM: Yes. SW: That’s maybe . . . that kind of a . . . SM: Oh, maybe that influence. SW: Yes, maybe. I don’t know really. You see, most people you see in the Cities or here, or everywhere . . . university community or professional, any kind of thing, most are in the science area. SM: Yes. Right. SW: Yes. BW: At least for Chinese. SW: Yes, maybe that’s because this . . . our society is encouraging . . . not definitely but a little bit behavior then encouraging people to go into the science area. Easy to [unclear] and yourself, achieve something there. SM: Right. It’s an easy . . . SW: So then the native . . . the local, local people. Now I am not a native as in Indian [chuckles] no, not native, but local people already in the . . . particularly the first generation coming in here. SM: Yes. SW: In order to compete with the other people, maybe science field has more room for us. SM: Oh, yes. Right. SW: That’s why I think the influence on the second generation. SM: I see. BW: Actually, she likes English very much. SM: Does she? 42

SW: Oh, yes. She does it better than everything else, actually. Even the . . . BW: She does much better . . . she’s does better in English. SW: Yes, better than the other courses from school. SM: Oh. Well, certainly . . . BW: She was in speech, you know. SW: Yes. SM: Oh. SW: She participated in speech. SM: She what? She participated in speech? SW: Yes. BW: Speech, yes. SW: She represented the school to the district competition, something like this, several times. SM: Oh. Well, certainly language would be no problem for her. SW: Oh, no. No, no, not at all. SM: Right. SW: Sometimes I even discuss.... [Recording interruption] SM: ...she might be . . . thinks better in Chinese. Oh, well, she’s very lucky to have two really good language abilities [unclear]. BW: Well, one course she’s taking, she’s taking French. SM: Oh. SW: She’s going to learn to [unclear]. BW: So yesterday she said . . . in her letter she said . . . 43

SM: She could become an interpreter. [Chuckles] BW: “Mom, I got an A in French again.” [Chuckles] SM: Oh. Well, she’s a very good linguist then. But what was this about the speech competition? She was in competitive debates or something like that or . . .? SW: Yes, not debate, like they have a district . . . SM: Oh. Yes. SW: Some kind of like poem or fiction . . . BW: You know, [unclear] one year. SW: Fiction, those kind of . . . I don’t know, categories. SM: Oh. I see. SW: There are several categories. SM: Yes. BW: One year she was first. SM: Oh. SW: Yes, there were several . . . I think she went several times there with the . . . BW: Right, for local school. SW: Yes. SM: I see. BW: I think she was first in story or . . . SM: So she’s a good speaker. SW: I think story or fiction or something like a poem. As I said, those categories, I don’t know, really. [Chuckles] BW: It was like something like . . . 44

SM: Oh. You mean she read a poem or . . . or wrote it then? BW: She . . . you know, they already had to write themselves. SW: [Unclear]. Right. SM: They wrote it and then . . . BW: They wrote first. Right. SM: Oh. I see. BW: One year . . . it was two years ago, before Christmas time, she received a check, remember? SW: Oh, yes. That was . . . BW: It was thirty dollars. SM: Oh. SW: That was . . . yes. BW: Oh, you were not home. You went to Canada. SW: Yes, that was something kind of . . . BW: I think that’s the quarter Sinmin was taking a quarter leave for three months. SM: Oh. Oh, I see. Yes. In Duluth, was that? SW: No. Ontario, Canada. SM: Oh. Oh, in Canada. SW: I went there, yes. SM: Oh, I see. BW: Remember she wrote to you, she said, “Dad, I got . . .” That’s the Christmas present, was a thirty dollars check. [Chuckles] SM: I see. SW: [Unclear] from some kind of . . . 45

SM: I bet she liked that. [Chuckles] BW: [Chuckles] SW: Yes. SM: Yes. Well, do you have a special area of research that you’re in or . . . when you took your quarter leave or whatever [unclear]? SW: Oh, I . . . yes, did something in the combinatorics and graph theory. SM: Combinatorics? SW: Combinatorics, yes. SM: I see. So you went to Ontario to work on it? SW: Yes, that’s University of Waterloo. Waterloo, Ontario. SM: Oh, yes. Yes. BW: I still remember we had a hard time when Sinmin took the car along. SM: Oh, so you had to walk. [Chuckles] BW: For more than . . . SW: Three months, yes. BW: Three and a half months exactly. SM: Oh. SW: Yes, I left [unclear] late October . . . or August, and came back in January. SM: Oh, that’s quite [unclear]. SW: Later, they wanted me . . . and we’ve got some friends in Toronto. SM: Oh. SW: So we got a very good Christmas and a New Year that they seeing the Toronto area. SM: Oh well that’s nice. 46

BW: Later, before . . . SW: We have three or four friends there we visit every . . . SM: Ah. BW: Before Christmas kids got off from school and we rode a bus, we took Greyhound for thirty-six hours. SW: Yes. BW: On Greyhound. SM: On Greyhound, oh. That was a long ride. BW: [Chuckles] So to Toronto, Canada. SM: Oh, so you spent Christmas in Toronto. BW: Right. SM: Well, that was nice. SW: So nice. SM: Yes, that was a good idea. Yes. Well, what about your social relations in the town? Your friends and did you find it pretty easy to make friends here? BW: Yes, I’ve really made some friends. Mmmm, to me, now . . . SW: [Chuckles] Too much work, too many. BW: [Chuckles] SM: [Laughter] Too many friends. Oh, no! SW: She has too many! BW: Oh. I’m kind of an open person, you know. SM: Yes. You seem to be. BW: I can make friends very . . . SM: Right. 47

BW: I’m kind of easy. [Chuckles] SM: Yes. BW: Because I’m not a very [unclear] people. SM: Yes. BW: But now it’s getting busy. [Chuckles] SM: Yes, I’m sure that’s [unclear]. BW: And I can’t . . . I just then . . . for my Chinese cooking, for Morris . . . SM: Oh, I heard you were giving some classes. SW: Yes, she’s taught several years now. BW: [Unclear] classes. SW: Several years. SM: [Unclear] classes, oh. BW: But now every Tuesday night I have to drive twenty miles to Herman. [Chuckles] SW: To Herman. She’s teaching at Herman. SM: Oh, that’s where you teach. Is it at the high school or . . .? BW: At the community education. SM: Community education. BW: Yes, in the high school. SM: Is that H-E-R-M-A-N, Herman? SW: H-E-R-M-A-N, yes. Herman, Minnesota. Yes. BW: Right. Yes. SM: Oh, so how long have you been doing that? 48

BW: Since the fourth year. SW: Fourth. SM: Oh. BW: Yes. I . . . SM: It must be popular. BW: Like maybe the past three years . . . SW: Of course, that’s why she’s got so many friends in the town, and also [unclear] and almost everywhere. [Chuckles SM: She’s got too many. BW: Right, that sometimes I hesitate to go shopping and so on . . . SM: [Laughing] Oh, no. BW: Because every day when I go out then the . . . SM: They ask you how to cook. Well, that’s . . . BW: Then Lisa will meet some friends, you know. And Sinmin says [unclear] oh, maybe yesterday. We brought the [unclear] family . . . we had the [unclear]. SM: Oh, yes. I heard about that. BW: Right. SM: Yes. Are you involved with sponsoring them, too? BW: Yes. [Chuckles] And yesterday . . . SW: Not really, I think that they were sponsored by the church. BW: Church. SM: Yes, or community. BW: Our church [unclear]. SW: Community [unclear]. 49

SM: Yes. Yes, Betty [unclear] . . . SW: We were . . . she was asked to help them [unclear]. SM: I see. BW: Right. Last . . . I think last Wednesday I and Helen Fan . . . SM: Yes, I talked to her. BW: We brought Mrs. [unclear] the [unclear] people, we did some grocery shopping. SM: [Unclear] is her name? SW: Yes [unclear] I think it is. SM: Oh, they’re Chinese? BW: I was driving, I took the car. But I almost got stuck. [Chuckles] SM: Oh. BW: In that area . . . it seems to me, more snow. SW: Yes. BW: I didn’t realize the driveway wasn’t clean. SM: Yes, it’s deceptive sometimes. BW: So I drove through the red. And yesterday, Saturday, Sinmin said, “Oh, a nice day.” Oh, by the way, we go to see them then. SM: Oh. BW: So we went there. SM: Oh you just drove down to see them. BW: I can talk a little bit Cantonese, so Sinmin was surprised. [Chuckles] SW: I’m teasing her, “What are you going to do first when you see them?” SM: [Laughter] 50

SW: Because . . . BW: Because, you know, we speak Mandarin. SM: Yes. BW: And they speak Cantonese. SM: Oh, that’s really too bad. SW: Yes, entirely different language. Like . . . SM: Yes. BW: Just entirely different. SM: Yes. SW: Yes, like English and Spanish is. SM: Yes. SW: A few words are the same, but not all. SM: Yes. I was telling Helen, I grew up in Canton, and I speak Cantonese. SW: Oh [unclear]. SM: But I’ve forgotten a lot. SW: Oh, when was that? SM: In 1930, I was born there. SW: Oh, 1930. SM: Or I was born here and went as a baby. Then I stayed until 1948. SW: Oh, is that right? Which part of Canton? SM: Pardon me? SW: Which part? 51

SM: Oh, it was a Lingnan University, where my father taught, which is now Chung Shan University. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: Yes. It’s on Hainan Island, just in the delta. SW: [Unclear] it’s . . . SM: It’s part of the city but just a little away from the city. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: So kind of an island in the river. Yes. SW: Yes. SM: But, I was saying, I wish I was going to stay long enough to meet them, because . . . BW: Yes, this language, you have to keep . . . SM: Yes, it’s very rusty. BW: [Unclear]. Yes. SM: Yes. SW: Well, yes, it would get rusty. Yes. SM: Yes, it’s pretty rusty. But lately I’ve been hearing some of it when I go to interview and it’s coming back and . . . Interestingly enough, now there are some visiting professors at the university, the entomologists . . . SW: Oh, yes. SM: I think from the mainland. SW: Yes, I heard about three or . . . oh, one was the vice president of the university there. SM: Yes. SW: I heard that. SM: Yes, Professor [unclear]. 52

SW: Yes. SM: And his wife, when she found out I could speak Cantonese, she just made me speak Cantonese. [Chuckles] BW: Oh, right. SW: Yes, yes. Are they still here? SM: [Chuckles] She wanted me to remember it. Pardon? SW: Are they still here? SM: No. SW: They’re not there. SM: They were just here a few weeks and then they went to another university. SW: Oh, they left already. Hmmm. SM: They were very nice. And it turned out they live in a house just two doors down from where we lived. [Unclear - both Wu’s speaking at once] SW: So ever since . . . you didn’t go back then? SM: No. SW: No. SM: I would like to take my father back sometime for a visit. He’s eighty-five [unclear]. But I don’t know if we can save up that much money or not. SW: Yes. SM: Have you ever considered taking a trip back or . . .? SW: Yes, it’s kind of a . . . seems to me, personally, I’d love to go back and visit to where there’s my hometown and that. SM: Yes. Do you still have relatives in [unclear]? SW: Oh, yes. My one brother and three sisters. 53

SM: Oh, that would be nice to see them. SW: Yes, and one sister-in-law. One of the brothers, he passed away. SM: Oh, yes. SW: My sister-in-laws are there and nieces are still there. But somehow it’s kind of . . . quite complicated now . . . SM: Yes, and expensive. SW: That’s right, not [unclear]. BW: Not really. SM: [Chuckles] SW: Not until we see a clear picture of what really they are doing there. SM: Yes. SW: Otherwise, I just don’t know what to do. SM: Yes. It’s hard to know. SW: Yes, what to do. SM: Do they . . . can you contact them? Or do they write to you and . . .? SW: Oh, yes. Sure. We do. SM: Yes, that’s no problem then. SW: But you see, we all know all those Communist countries, they was kind a closed society. SM: Yes. SW: It’s a little . . . it’s hard to know really what’s going on there. SM: Right. SW: Not just by what they officially . . . they announce whatever they released . . . SM: Yes. 54

SW: What is it? Not the real things going on there. SM: Yes, right. SW: So not like us. SM: Right. SW: Here, the news media, they can say anything. SM: Yes. SW: So nothing to hide but everything is open to the public. SM: Yes. SW: But there it’s not. SM: Right. SW: So unless we got the real reliable information, something else . . . SM: Yes. SW: Otherwise, I just don’t know. SM: Yes. SW: Yes. We have the chance to read in the newspaper from both sides. SM: Yes. Yes. SW: But then you . . . it’s harder to make judgment, which is correct, which isn’t real, which is not . . . SM: It is really hard. Right. Yes. Right. SW: So we’re still waiting, see if someday we can go back. SM: Yes. It seems to be opening up a little maybe. SW: Yes, hopefully someday we can go back and see. SM: It would be interesting for your children. 55

SW: That’s right. Yes. SM: Seeing your . . . SW: And then besides, it’s different for you people to go and for us to go. SM: Oh, yes. Right. SW: It’s different. SM: Right. SW: Also, I learned they treat differently, too. That’s kind of somehow . . . I just don’t . . . SM: That happens. Some trips of overseas Chinese, some of the restaurant owners were telling me that. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: They went on a trip. SW: Yes. SM: They went back to Taishan where they . . . where their . . . well, I guess they were . . . SW: The most people . . . yes, here, the Cantonese from Taishan, yes. SM: Yes. Yes. SW: Yes. SM: Yes. Would you like to take a little break? BW: [Unclear] me? SM: Yes. BW: May I fix some tea or coffee for you? SM: Oh. I can’t drink any caffeine. [Chuckles] But I have some herb tea bags if you have just hot water I could put on. BW: Yes, I have some Chinese tea or you can have . . . 56

SM: Yes, I like it very much but I can’t . . . SW: Yes. BW: Do you have your own? SM: Yes, I have my own. BW: I can make some water for you. SM: Okay.... [Recording interruption] SW: ...have changed . . . yes. SM: Oh, I hope I can get a chance to at least maybe call them. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: Because we have a watts line. SW: Yes. Yes. SM: And I heard there was a Dr. Liu. SW: Dr. Liu and Dr. [unclear]. SM: Ha. SW: Yes, yes. Both of them. And the one Chinese doctor, he married an American wife in Alexandria, Dr. [unclear]. SM: Yes. SW: Yes. SM: [Unclear]. SW: Yes. And . . . yes, and that’s all we know around here. SM: Do you get together with them at all? SW: Yes. Because they even visited us. 57

SM: Yes, there’s [unclear]. Right. SW: So even we do have summer vacation long enough, but they don’t. SM: They don’t. SW: So we get together twice or three times a year, that kind of thing. [Chuckles] SM: Oh, yes. SW: But we keep in touch constantly with each other. SM: I see. Oh, you do talk with them by phone or . . .? SW: Yes. We sometimes . . . mostly we go there and . . . SM: Oh, you go for medical . . . SW: Yes, and call them and see them. SM: I see. SW: Sometimes we get together and have a supper or something like this. SM: I see. So you see them fairly frequently or talk to them. Yes. Yes, I’ve wondered, you know, whether Chinese in other little towns nearby and Chinese here in Morris form a kind of group. SW: Not really a formal group. SM: Not too much. SW: But just like American friends, we know each other and get to . . . SM: Yes. Yes, not formal organization, but . . . SW: Yes, just to . . . yes. Like we have a chance to see the American people everywhere . . . like we’ve got one friend in the Cities . . . SM: Oh. Yes. SW: He was here, he taught here several years and then he quit. He went to the Control Data. SM: Oh. 58

SW: Now we’re still good friends. We went there and saw them and stayed with them and something like this. Well, actually . . . SM: Oh, he used to teach here then. SW: Yes. Bob Raymond. He now is working in the Control Data. SM: Oh, I see. BW: Yes, I have to write to her. SM: Is he Chinese or . . .? SW: No, he’s American. SM: American. Yes. SW: He’s from Indiana. SM: I see. SW: Yes, both of them are from Indiana. SM: I see. Yes. Are there any Chinese in like Sauk Centre or Saint Cloud or Benson or . . .? SW: Yes. I don’t think any . . . BW: I know at least one family in Saint Cloud. SW: Well, there is one lady, her husband is an American. They are living in Barry. SM: Oh, yes. SW: The lady . . . Swanson lady. SM: Swanson is the name? SW: Yes. SM: Oh. SW: Then he . . . I think he is a superintendent of schools or principal of a school, I don’t know. SM: Yes. I think . . . 59

SW: I might have . . . his wife, sometimes in the library . . . she’s taking courses here. SM: She works at the university, doesn’t she? SW: Yes. Yes. SM: I think maybe [unclear] told me. SW: Yes, she’s . . . her last name is Swanson, I guess. BW: Yes, you mentioned her to me. SW: Yes. Yes. BW: I never met her. SM: Or is it Carlton? Or maybe it is Swanson. SW: Swanson, I think Swanson. Yes. SM: Some kind of Swedish name anyway. BW: We have her name and telephone number. SW: Yes, I’ve got her telephone number if you want it. But there is a lady . . . SM: Oh, that would be nice. SW: Yes, there is a lady married [to] an American, Olson, in Alexandria, too. SM: Oh. SW: He’s . . . he’s in kind of a . . . produce, vegetables, something like this, a distributor in Alexandria. SM: I see. SW: I don’t know her address there. BW: Are they still there? SW: Yes, sure. SM: She’s Chinese too then? 60

SW: Yes. Her sister is also here. She is going to the college in Fergus Falls. SM: Oh. SW: Last time when we met . . . BW: Oh, right. SW: There was a choir from . . . church choir from Taiwan. We went there, Fergus Falls. She came, she is going to school in Fergus Falls. SM: I see. BW: That her . . . her sister. SW: Her sister, yes. Olson, Mrs. Olson’s sister, yes. SM: Oh. Yes. SW: Her . . . her maiden name is Liu, from Taiwan, Liu. And I think there are a couple families in Saint Cloud. But I don’t know. We met [unclear] they opened a store there once. SM: Oh. SW: Now closed. BW: And one . . . one professor, you know. SW: Oh, yes. SM: [Unclear]. SW: Yes. BW: [Unclear] but I forgot. SW: No, I think we met one, he was from Hong Kong though probably. SM: Oh. BW: You mean Saint Cloud? SW: Yes, Saint Cloud State, the math department. BW: Right. 61

SW: He is from Hong Kong. SM: Oh. And there is a Chinese restaurant in Saint Cloud, too, I think, [unclear] café or something. SW: Yes. That’s a newly opened . . . SM: Oh, a new one? Oh. SW: But we didn’t have a chance to talk to the owner there yet. SM: Oh. SW: We went there once. SM: Because one had been there a long time. SW: Which one? SM: The [unclear] café. SW: Oh, that’s a . . . SM: Yes. SW: We’ve never been there, Okay. SM: Oh. But now there’s a new one? SW: But we went to the new ones. SM: Oh. SW: One is from Laos. SM: Oh. SW: Wait . . . from Cambodia or from Laos, I forget. SM: I see. BW: From Laos. SW: Laos, yes. One from Laos. 62

BW: Yes. SM: Oh. Yes. BW: Last we went there . . . SW: Yes, last time we went, they . . . in the downtown. SM: Oh, I didn’t know about that one. SW: Ah . . . the name is . . . [chuckles] I forget the name of the restaurant there. BW: It’s . . . ah . . . I [unclear]. SW: They . . . oh . . . SM: So there’s a . . . BW: So there’s a . . . just at Thanksgiving we went there. SW: Yes, they offered Chinese cooking, Vietnamese cooking, and French cooking. SM: Oh. SW: That’s amazing. BW: It was fancy. SM: That must be competition for that other one then. [Chuckles] BW: Right. [Chuckles] SW: Yes, we loved the French . . . BW: Onion soup. [Chuckles] SW: . . . onion soup. Cheese onion soup. That’s [unclear]. [Chuckles] SM: Oh. That is good. [Chuckles] BW: It’s good. [Chuckles] SW: That’s right. 63

SM: Well, I heard that that old one in Saint Cloud was not, you know, a very fancy one. [Chuckles] SW: No, no. No, we never got a chance to go there. SM: This might be a lot of competition. SW: Yes. I learned there was one family from Taiwan, too. They opened a souvenir store in the shopping center where the ShopKo is. SM: Here in . . .? SW: No, in Saint Cloud. BW: In Saint Cloud. SM: Oh, in Saint Cloud. Oh. SW: ShopKo shopping center. But now they closed. BW: They closed. SW: Yes. SM: Oh. SW: The store’s name was Taiwan. SM: Oh. SW: But now I don’t know if they are still in Saint Cloud or not. But I heard also there are several Chinese families there. SM: Oh, there must be for them . . . SW: But we have not contact there, no, we have no contact with them. SM: I see. You don’t have contact with them. SW: No. No. We know there is a family in Mankato. SM: Oh. SW: The gentleman we met once in Minneapolis, he’s teaching political science at Mankato State. 64

SM: Political science. Yes. SW: Yes. SM: I’ll have to . . . I’m . . . I hope maybe I can go to the South, too, or the middle. SW: Yes. Yes. They are . . . otherwise . . . SM: Do you know of any in Northfield? That would be sort of on the way [chuckles] to [unclear]. SW: Northfield . . . SM: I think there are a few Koreans there, but I don’t know . . . SW: Family . . . no . . . SM: Well, there used to be a Chinese couple there and they left [unclear]. SW: Were they Chinese on faculty there? SM: Yes, at Saint Olaf, but they’ve left now. SW: Oh. SM: They went to Washington. Hmmm. BW: [Unclear] put it here? SW: Yes. [Unclear]. [Sound of teacups rattling] SM: How would you describe the difference living out here in a small town and living in the Cities where there would be many Chinese? I don’t know if maybe the professionals don’t really look for a lot of Chinese to associate with or not. But what would be your view on that? Whether there is . . . whether it changes your life [chuckles] living out here or . . .? SW: Might if you always associated with Chinese people. Like I recall when I was in graduate school, usually most . . . now, not typical thing, not only my experience, I think, as I learned, all the universities all over the country, somehow it becomes kind of a pattern. All the Chinese students, they got together. SM: Oh. 65

SW: They seldom do associate with any other people. SM: Yes. SW: Other kind of people. Not American students, not students from the other countries. SM: Okay. SW: It becomes kind of a . . . a pattern. And the reason why is because of the language problem. SM: Yes. Right. SW: They are not able to communicate very well with the local people, particularly the first couple years. SM: Right. So they [unclear]. SW: But there . . . of course, there are exceptions. SM: Yes. SW: As I . . . when I was in Southern Illinois, I mentioned to you one person, one student, he was born in Australia. SM: Oh, yes. SW: And myself and one guy from Canada, Nova Scotia. SM: Oh. SW: The three of us stick around together. And one . . . he was a Greek dissident from Chicago. Mostly the four of us got together. And frankly, all of us are foreign students. SM: You were the only foreign students there? SW: No. Oh, we were plenty there. SM: Oh. Yes. SW: But I don’t know . . . SM: But the Greek was with the Chinese then? SW: No, because we were all in the math department. 66

SM: Oh, I see. Yes. SW: So that’s how we got together, we were closely . . . because we got a chance to discuss problems and go to class at the same time, mostly the same classes. SM: Sure. Yes. SW: That got . . . SM: So that group you were in then. SW: The . . . fall into the . . . yes, a group kind of . . . SM: Oh. SW: Of course, we also associated with the Chinese students. My experience, we didn’t have much chance to associate with the American students. SM: Oh, I see. Yes. SW: No, not until I came to here to work. SM: Oh. SW: Here, not too many other kinds of people. We gradually . . . we melt into the big melting pot. SM: What was that? SW: Melt in the big pot. We now . . . we’re . . . no difference at all to associate with American people or whatever it is. SM: I see. SW: It seems to me . . . BW: Do you need some sugar? SM: No thank you. SW: No difference at all. SM: I see. 67

SW: Yes, I can imagine in the big city . . . SM: Yes. SW: Some of the families, after work they still stick around with the Chinese families. SM: Yes. SW: Not much association with other kinds of people. I think that maybe . . . yes. I don’t know, it depends on how do you look at that kind of a situation. SM: Yes. SW: It seems to me it’s not too healthy. SM: Yes. Well, it seems to me in the small towns, I guess you would be forced to interact with everybody. SW: That’s right. Actually, that’s the way . . . SM: Yes. SW: Because you are living here, you should associate with whatever you . . . you have . . . SM: Right. [Chuckles] SW: Yes. SM: Yes. SW: You don’t then isolate yourself with a small group of people. SM: Right. Yes. So you socialize with other faculty members and . . .? SW: But . . . well, still, some kind of a restriction now mostly because of . . . we have daily contact mostly with the people in the science division. SM: Oh. SW: So we have a close relationship with the faculty in the science division. SM: Sure. That’s understandable. Yes. SW: Other than that, the different divisions . . . that’s because the . . . well, we have no chance to see them. Yes, so automatically, it’s become kind of a . . . situation like this. 68

SM: Yes. I see. And then you usually associate with the same groups from his department? BW: Yes, we . . . university [unclear]. SW: She has more contact than I do. SM: She has in the town, I suppose. SW: Yes. BW: At the university we have a women’s association. SM: Oh, yes. BW: Yes. SM: It’s called . . . is that called the univ . . . what is the exact name of that? BW: The University Women’s Association. SM: Yes. That seems to be very active. BW: I think this year we have less members. SM: Oh. BW: I think maybe around forty. SM: Yes. BW: Spring, we are hoping we can get more. SM: Well, that’s a nice size. You can know everyone pretty well. BW: Right. SM: Yes. BW: Like we have a Christmas party, a spring picnic. [Unclear] that I joined the bridge group. SM: Yes. BW: Every Thursday they play bridge. And have foreign cooking. 69

SM: Oh. I know who’s in charge of that. [Chuckles] BW: Yes. SM: You’re famous in this town. [Chuckles] BW: [Chuckles] SW: [Chuckles] SM: I heard it from everyone. “Oh, well, Betty Wu is . . .” [Chuckles] Cooking teacher. BW: It’s fun. I also . . . I can learn lots from the other people. SM: Oh, I suppose. BW: Because we’re cooking in a . . . it seems to me everybody does it a different way. SM: Sure. Right. BW: So that’s how I learn . . . pretty much from them. [Chuckles] SM: Have you learned any Norwegian cooking? [Chuckles] BW: Yes. Yes. SM: Did you? [Chuckles] BW: Yes. Yes. SM: That should be prevalent around here, I should think. BW: They have all those . . . the flat bread. [Betty Wu is probably referring to Norwegian lefse.] SM: Oh, can you make that? BW: [Chuckles] SM: Chinese flat bread? [Chuckles] BW: That’s Norwegian, they make flat bread also. [Chuckles] SM: Yes. [Chuckles] Right. I see. BW: Last quarter I just took the cake decorating class. 70

SM: The which class? SW: Cake decoration. SM: Oh. BW: Cake. Cake decoration class. It was fun. SM: Was this in the Women’s Association or in the . . .? BW: No, this is from the community education. Yes. SM: Continuing education, community education. I see. So you teach a class and take a class. BW: [Chuckles] SM: I see. Well, one thing too that I just was thinking about this morning. The same student . . . well, they’re now, you know, not at school, but the second generation or about four or five of them I’ve talked to who grew up in the 1950s in the Twin Cities, they’re very interesting people. But they were telling me that also there was a lot of concern by their parents as to who they would marry. And I wondered if that’s something you’re worried about or whether you’re not worried or what your children think about it or . . .? BW: I cannot say that I’m not worried, but . . . [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] You are worried? BW: But of course like you know we wish they could marry with a Chinese boy. SM: Yes. SW: Yes. It seems to me, of course, we haven’t faced that kind of problem yet. SM: Right. It’s a little early. [Chuckles] SW: We’ve heard a lot about mixed marriages, they created lots of . . . tragedies. And some are happy ending, some are not very well. So we are all aware of the situation. If it’s possible, we’d certainly like to marry the people they can understand each other, that’s most important thing. SM: Yes. SW: And accepted by their family, because we are all girls, we have to give them away. SM: Yes. 71

SW: That’s the most important thing. We don’t mind who they are going to marry. SM: Yes. SW: The most important thing is whether they can be accepted by their family or not. SM: Sure. SW: Not only the boy himself. SM: Right. SW: Yes, because you are not alone always with your husband. You have to associate with lots of people in their family and their community. SM: Right. And that’s not easy. SW: That’s most of the concern we have. We don’t mind. If they can be accepted, that’s alright, fine, to us. Yes. SM: So it’s not a racial thing but . . . SW: I don’t think so. SM: More cultural. SW: That’s right. Yes. I think it mostly . . . yes. SM: Do they say anything about that or . . .? SW: [Chuckles] They haven’t . . . SM: They haven’t started to think about it yet. SW: No, not yet. [Laughing] The two younger ones, they . . . BW: [Chuckles] We are also, you know . . . [unclear]. SW: They’re two hundred miles away from that. SM: [Chuckles] SW: The older one, then she’s too busy. 72

BW: And then she’s the first year in college . . . SW: Yes, in college. Oh, she’s busy. BW: She’s so busy! [Chuckles] SW: So just . . . BW: She doesn’t have any time to think about it. [Chuckles] SW: She doesn’t have time to think about any other questions. SM: I’m sure she’s not thinking about that yet though. [Chuckles] BW: Yes, study, study, study. [Chuckles] SW: Yes. SM: Do you eat Chinese food mainly here, or do your children? I suppose your children have gotten to like hamburgers. [Chuckles] SW: You bet. You bet. You bet, yes. Exactly. Exactly. BW: They like some certain dishes for Chinese food. SM: They do like some. BW: But not all. [Chuckles] SM: Oh. BW: Yes. SM: But you two prefer Chinese food at home? BW: I think that for Sinmin, he does, he prefers Chinese food. SM: Do you usually have Chinese food? BW: He prefers rice. SM: Oh, yes. Rice, especially, seems to be something people really want. SW: Yes, I don’t like the commercial brand. I think the homemade one. 73

SM: Oh. Yes. Yes. SW: The commercial one is kind of . . . SM: It’s not the same. [Chuckles] SW: No, it’s not. I don’t know . . . BW: So that’s why he makes me so busy [chuckles] for cooking. SW: Yes. Yes, she . . . she’s learned now to make homemade bread . . . BW: Yes, I took a class for how to make bread. SW: Yes. SM: Oh, did you? BW: Yes. SM: Yes. BW: I took a lesson from somebody. Homemade bread. SW: Yes, so if we’re going to eat American food, we have to make homemade bread, not one . . . buy it from the market. BW: Right. SM: Oh, yes. It’s much better. Right. SW: That’s . . . it doesn’t . . . BW: So I make homemade bread. SM: Do you make whole wheat bread? BW: Yes. American bread. SM: Oh. Yes. BW: I . . . I put [chuckles] almost everything I have in my bread, like whole wheat and rye . . . SM: Rye, yes. 74

BW: [Unclear]. SM: Yes. BW: And wheat germ. SM: Oh, yes. It sounds healthy. BW: All kinds. Yes. Very tasty. SM: But Norwegians are famous for their bread. BW: Yes. SM: Yes. Oh, so you have bread and . . . BW: Yes. SM: I suppose you have some American foods, some Chinese. BW: I made [unclear] Wednesday [unclear]. SM: Yes. BW: We’ve had bread. SM: Oh, yes. Well, you’re an international cook then. [Chuckles] SW: [Chuckles] BW: I find it rather interesting, different cooking. [Chuckles] SM: Oh, yes. I learned to make bread from my mother-in-law, who is Norwegian, too. [Chuckles] BW: Yes. SM: But you usually have Chinese food maybe once a day or more? BW: I think like at least five days a week . . . five suppers, you know. SM: Oh. Five suppers. BW: Like lunch is . . . I think that’s [unclear] for lunch. 75

SW: I . . . oh, I . . . yes, I have to eat American food. [Chuckles] So that’s why . . . so . . . SM: [Chuckles] BW: He brings a sandwich. So that’s why he says, one meal’s enough for each day, you know. So every lunch he brings a sandwich. SM: I see. BW: So when even, you know, I . . . SM: With your homemade bread? [Chuckles] BW: Right. [Chuckles] SM: Well, the way you said it, it doesn’t sound like you really like to take your lunch. [Chuckles] SW: It’s not too bad. I get used to it. Get used to that. SM: [Chuckles] Not too bad. BW: He likes peanut butter and jelly sandwich. [Chuckles] SM: Oh, yes. That’s good. Yes. BW: Yes. SM: Easy to make. SW: That’s right. BW: And he likes it. He eats it. Tastes good. [Chuckles] SM: Yes. Yes, I think it tastes good, too. Well . . . BW: I like pizza. SM: Oh, do you? BW: Yes. Do you? SM: Oh, yes, I like pizza, too. BW: I like pizza. [Chuckles] It’s not . . . 76

SM: I like Chinese food the best though. [Chuckles] SW: [Chuckles] BW: It’s not Chinese food, but I like it. Yes. SM: Do your children eat out in hamburger places? BW: Right. They prefer hamburgers. SM: [Laughing] They prefer hamburgers. BW: Right. [Chuckles] SM: Oh, they’re real American teenagers, I see. [Chuckles] BW: [Chuckles] SM: Well, let’s see if there was anything I was going to ask you that I didn’t remember . . . I think we’ve pretty much covered it. Was there anything else you can think of that would have to do with living in an outstate area or living in Morris particularly? SW: It seems to me it’s better than a big city. SM: Yes. BW: [Unclear]. SW: For the children, I think it’s a lot better than a big city. BW: We like the [unclear]. SW: No problems. Yes, not much . . . BW: We like . . . like vacations, we like to bring the children along. SM: I see. Oh, do you go out West or where do you go? BW: We’ve been in the West for a few times. SW: Yes. SM: Oh. 77

SW: In the summer times there in Los Angeles. BW: [Unclear]. SM: Oh, I see. SW: We went to Santa Barbara. BW: Santa Barbara. SW: Yes, I . . . SM: Oh, that’s a pretty [unclear]. SW: I had a research project, it was the university of . . . UC-Santa Barbara. BW: And in San Francisco. SM: Oh. SW: So that’s why we went there in the summers. SM: Oh, several summers. SW: Yes. We also went to San Francisco. We’ve got friends there. BW: We have some friends. SM: Oh. SW: Yes. SM: Oh, that’s nice. SW: That’s nice, yes. SM: Yes. SW: And on the other hand I think that the big cities have their problems. BW: Yes. SW: That we don’t have in the small town. SM: Right. 78

SW: Because I think it’s good for the kids, particularly, for teenagers. SM: Yes. SW: Like where . . . we went to New York City only ten days we lived there. SM: Oh. SW: For fun, or for the vacation, I mean. SM: Yes. SW: It seems to me we got the paper from there [unclear] us always kind of things, problems . . . BW: Every day. [Chuckles] SM: Oh, yes. Yes. SW: It scared me. I don’t want to live there. SM: [Chuckles] BW: [Chuckles] SW: Just for vacations, alright. We’ve got a friend, they were living in New York, now moved down here to teach at the university. SM: Oh. SW: Teaching here, he’s teaching economics. SM: Here at Morris? SW: Yes. He mentioned that all kinds of problems going on there. SM: Yes, there are many more problems. SW: Yes, and it seems to me, I prefer to raise the children in a small town. SM: Yes. BW: Good. Good for children. SW: Yes. 79

SM: Yes. It seems to be very . . . SW: Yes, also, you can see real America from the small towns. SM: Yes. BW: That’s true. SM: That’s right. SW: Not from the big city. You don’t see. SM: So the high crime rate and so on is one thing you like to get away from. SW: That’s a big problem. That’s a big problem. How it affects the life of the children. SM: Yes. Hmmm. Well, do you take any Chinese newspapers or magazines or subscribe to . . .? SW: Now we . . . yes. We do have American ones. We also like to see something from the Chinese communities in the United States, from Hong Kong, from Taiwan, from . . . BW: Sinmin likes to read. SM: Yes. SW: Some . . . some news from the China mainland even. BW: He always reads. SM: I see. SW: See how it goes there during the change there. SM: Yes. SW: What’s going on there, and . . . SM: Oh, so you subscribe to all of these things then? SW: We get one kind of paper that includes everything. SM: Oh. SW: Yes. Daily paper, sent over from San Francisco. 80

SM: Oh, I see. BW: [Unclear] San Francisco. SM: Yes. And it’s in Chinese? SW: Yes. BW: In Chinese. SM: What’s the name of that? SW: Ah . . . World Journal. SM: Woo Journal? SW: World, World Journal, yes. SM: World Journal? SW: Yes. SM: Oh, it has an English title? SW: Yes, it [chuckles] has an English title but there is a Chinese. SM: Oh. SW: Except the title, otherwise all Chinese. SM: I see. [Chuckles] BW: [Chuckles] SM: Maybe it’s handier to have a name. [Chuckles] SW: I don’t know, maybe there for the . . . for the government or registration or something like this for the licensing, something like that. BW: [Chuckles] SM: Yes, it’s easier, I suppose. Well, do other Chinese here take that, too? Or do you lend them your copy or . . .? 81

SW: I don’t know. SM: Do you think the Fans [Sen and Helen Fan] do? SW: The Fans, they have a newspaper from Taiwan. BW: [Unclear] kind of newspaper they have, Taiwan. SW: Central, daily Chinese newspaper. That’s a . . . SM: That’s from Taiwan? SW: Yes, [unclear]. And I do think they have that World Journal, too. I don’t know. I’m not sure. BW: Helen said that when her sister was here . . . SW: Probably there is . . . they get . . . BW: Her sister, one [unclear] her sister. SW: Yes, discontinued that, probably. BW: [Unclear] yes. SW: I don’t know. BW: I don’t know [unclear]. SW: Yes. SM: Yes. So this World Journal then includes news of Chinese in the United States? SW: Oh, yes. San Francisco, New York, Honolulu . . . SM: Oh. BW: And San Francisco local news also. SM: Oh, I see. SW: Yes, local news, New York local news, Honolulu’s news, and then Hong Kong. SM: [Unclear] Taiwan. 82

SW: Yes, Taiwan, Hong Kong. SM: And mainland. SW: Mainland, yes. SM: Oh, that sounds like a good newspaper. SW: So, yes, it has something . . . BW: Quite a lot of pages. SW: Yes. BW: [Unclear]. SW: More than that. BW: Let’s see . . . SM: How many pages? SW: Fifteen or eighteen . . . twenty pages, I think. It’s a big one. BW: [Unclear]. SM: [Gasps] Oh. BW: [Chuckles] SW: Huge one. BW: Yes. SM: Oh. Do the children read that at all? SW: No, no. They can’t read it, you know. SM: Yes. Just . . . SW: Yes, they can’t read it. SM: Hmmm. BW: Sometimes if I read the [unclear] read a kind of story. 83

SM: Yes. BW: I think that, you know, I shouldn’t tell them. SM: Oh. Yes. BW: So whenever I read [unclear]. Like [unclear] I saw [unclear] and [unclear] a child. He found the lighter, you know, for cigarettes. SM: Yes. BW: A lighter in the parking lot, on the ground. SM: Yes. BW: So he brought it home and gave it to his mother, so and when his mother used that to light her cigarette, and then it was a bomb inside. SM: Oh. BW: So [unclear] mother two fingers lost, so I read that. SM: You read [unclear]. [Unclear – everyone speaking at once] BW: Never pick up stuff from the . . . [Chuckles] SM: [Chuckles] Well, that’s terrible. Were there ever any Chinese here that you know of before the 1960s? Or maybe some . . . no, but not students either, but . . . SW: Here? Oh, we’ve got some Chinese families in and out, moved away. One family . . . SM: Here in Morris? SW: One family left before the 1960s though. I think one . . . the year when I came in 1965, they moved out to Michigan and [unclear]. SM: Oh. SW: Dearborn, Michigan. SM: Oh. 84

BW: Who was the . . .? SM: Who was that? SW: Chu. Chu. SM: Chu. BW: Chu. Oh, I never met them. SW: Yes, he taught economics here. SM: Oh. SW: Now he’s still teaching economics at the University of Michigan. SM: I see. SW: And another family after the 1960s, he left for the . . . Iowa. Des Moines, Iowa. BW: Ling. SW: Ling [unclear]. SM: Ling? SW: He went like to school. SM: Do you know their first name or the husband’s first name? SW: John Ling. SW: John Ling? SW: Yes. Chu, I don’t know his . . . Yu Ming Chu, Yu Ming. BW: Yu Ming. SW: Yu Ming. Yes. SM: Would that be Yu, M-I-N-G or . . .? SW: Yu . . . probably, yes. SM: [Unclear] maybe. 85

SW: Yu Ming . . . I . . . I forget the spelling. SM: Or something . . . SW: But we called him Yu Ming, yes. SM: Yes. And John, would that be . . .? How would he have spelled it first [unclear]? BW: John . . . John Ling. SW: Jae Won. Jae Won. SM: Jae Wong? BW: Jae Won. SW: Jae Won, oh, Jae Won. SM: Oh. SW: Jae Won. SM: I see. SW: And . . . SM: What did he teach? SW: He taught math, too. SM: Oh, yes. Yes. SW: Yes. And another couple families, they were just a short term here, one year, then out. SM: Oh. Some Chinese families? SW: Yes. One family’s name is Wong. He’s from . . . he only stayed here one year. Then he moved to the Johns Hopkins. SM: Oh. Do you know what year that was? SW: I forget. The 1960s . . . SM: But in the 1960s? 86

SW: 1967 or 1968. BW: [Unclear]. SW: 1967, probably. Yes. SM: I see. SW: 1967. SM: Yes. SW: Yes, 1967. BW: Well, we were in [unclear] Avenue. SW: Yes, in 1967. Yes. BW: I’d just came here. SW: Yes. Yes, 1967. BW: Yes. SM: Oh. BW: It was 1967. SW: Yes, then one year, they left. SM: Yes. SW: And then later we got a couple statisticians in the math department. One’s Chang. SM: Chong? SW: Chang. Yes, Chang. SM: Oh, Chang. SW: Yes. C-H-A-N-G, Chang. BW: Oh [unclear]. 87

SW: He went to Calgary, Canada. SM: Oh. He was in the 1960s then? SW: He is from Canada. SM: Oh, he’s from . . . SW: He was from Canada. SM: I see. SW: I don’t know what his . . . his first name, I don’t forget this . . . BW: [Chuckles] SM: Was he Canadian Chinese or just he worked there? SW: Yes, Canadian Chinese. SM: Oh, I see. SW: Canadian Chinese. He’s a statistician. He came here one year and then left to go to Calgary, Canada. SM: Yes. I see. SW: And then one is . . . Wong. Wong. SM: Wong? SW: Yes. [unclear] Wong. BW: Oh, that was last year. SW: Yes. BW: Last year? Or year before? SW: Last year. Wong. SM: [Unclear]? SW: [Unclear] Wong. Now he’s in Virginia someplace, I don’t know what his name . . . the school name. He’s teaching there, too. He’s a statistician. 88

SM: Yes. SW: Now we’ve got a new statistician here. He is supposed to be a permanent one. SM: Yes. SW: He’s Ching Min Yeh. SM: Oh, he’s here now? SW: Yes, he’s here now. SW: Ching Min Yeh, last name Y-E-H. SM: Y-E-H. SW: Ching Min, C-H . . . SM: Did he just come though, or . . .? SW: Yes, he just came in this year. SM: I see. SW: From El Paso, Texas. El Paso. SM: Oh. SW: And the one family, Yin, Nick Yin, he’s a chemist. SM: Oh, is he here now? SW: Yes. He is from Iowa. Oh, Idaho. Sorry. Moscow, Idaho. Oh, wait a minute. Well, he is from LaCrosse, Wisconsin. He got his degree from Idaho. SM: Is he Chinese American then? SW: No, Chinese. SM: Oh, he’s Chinese. SW: Yes. His wife is Chinese, too. Yin. SM: Oh, so there are many more, I see. [Chuckles] 89

SW: [Unclear] He is single. He is single, yes. SM: He’s single? SW: Yes. And in and out, in and out, we have many people . . . Chinese people, Chinese people with families. SM: So the Fans and you have been here the longest? SW: Yes, we’ve been here that long. SM: Yes. I see. Do you think you’ll stay here or you haven’t thought about it maybe? [Chuckles] SW: [Chuckles] Well, I don’t know. Yes. SM: [Chuckles] SW: Some [unclear]. We might stay here for a while. SM: Yes. [Chuckles] Can’t foresee, I guess, what’s going to happen. SW: That’s right. SM: Well, so there really are a number of other ones here right now [unclear] too. SW: Exactly. SM: Yes. [Unclear]. Yes, I see. Well, that’s . . . I found out a lot about Morris this weekend. [Chuckles] SW: [Unclear] a small town is [unclear]. Yes. SM: Can you think of anything else we should have talked about that you would like to talk about? BW: [Unclear]. SM: What’s your general impression of Morris? It doesn’t have to be all good. What do you dislike about Morris? [Chuckles] BW: I like their people. SM: Yes. They’re friendly? 90

BW: I think they are friendly. They are really helpful. SM: Are they? BW: Yes. Like my close neighbors, they knew what happened [unclear] home, like sometimes Sinmin goes for meetings. SM: Yes. BW: So [unclear]. And then they were [unclear] watch the door for me. SM: Oh. That’s nice. BW: If they saw a stranger come. Like today, if Sinmin’s not home, and then they saw this car. SM: Oh. BW: [Unclear] know this car. SM: Oh, really? They call you up? BW: And they would call me. SM: Oh. BW: Yes. SM: Yes. SW: [Chuckles] Help each other. SM: Maybe they saw me driving around the neighborhood. [Chuckles] BW: [Chuckles] SM: Yes. Well, that’s nice that they’re looking out for you. BW: Now they really like Chinese food. SM: Oh. BW: I mean, my cooking. [Chuckles] SM: Ah. You can get popular fast with that. 91

BW: Sometimes they come just for a short visit. And I have something made already and I bring out and then . . . SM: Oh, yes. SW: Yes, just like . . . well, family [unclear]. Not a kind of formal . . . if you drop in here, we have something ready . . . SM: Yes. [Unclear] SW: Share with each other. SM: Sure. Right. SW: And sometimes we call them over and not kind of a formal party but just to get together, have a cup of tea, cup of coffee, and some egg rolls sometimes, something like this. SM: Yes. Oh so there’s a lot of back and forth with your neighbors. SW: Yes. Just . . . yes, sure. Yes. That is nice. SM: Well, that’s nice. SW: Yes, before, the first couple years we were scared about the snow. SM: Oh. SW: Now we get used to it, the snow, so what, it’s alright, the snow. We get out to drive in the winter time. BW: Because you’ve got the big machine. SW: Yes, I’ve got a machine that blows snow around so like . . . BW: He spends pretty much [unclear] to get the eight horsepower. [Chuckles] SW: Yes, the big one. BW: It was a snowblower. [Chuckles] SM: Oh, yes. Yes. Well, it’s true that it’s scary until you know how to handle it, and then it’s . . . you learn how to survive. SW: Yes, that’s it. 92

BW: Already Sinmin is very fast. Like from here, I couldn’t see the [unclear]. SM: Oh. Oh, in a storm. BW: The snow. SM: Oh, it was piled up. [Chuckles] SW: I think it’s . . . yes. Oh, yes. BW: [Unclear]. SW: Yes, even though you are living in Saint Paul, that’s . . . you never experience that kind of a snowstorm as we do here. SM: Oh. Sometimes we do get stuck and can’t get out to the street. [Chuckles] SW: Yes. Yes, that’s a [unclear]. SM: But yes, we live in the country. SW: That was here sometimes. BW: Yes. SW: But that’s alright. SM: Yes, it was Professor [unclear] told me about . . . he watched a storm that was for fortyeight hours. SW: Oh, yes. Sure. SM: [Unclear]. SW: Now we got . . . SM: Sixty miles per hour winds. SW: Like in 1968. BW: Yes. SM: Oh is that when . . .? SW: That was the worst one that . . . in front of the house . . . 93

BW: The [unclear] the area. SM: Oh. SW: Just piled up to the . . . I mean, the eavesdrops in the front. SM: Oh. [Chuckles] SW: You can’t see. So the snow . . . BW: Just like tunnel. SM: It’s like a tunnel! [Laughter] Oh. BW: Yes, there was a tunnel. SW: Yes, snowplow cannot shovel all the snow away, they just dig a hole. BW: One way. It was one way, you know, when we drive. [Chuckles] SM: Oh. SW: Oh, yes. BW: We had to honk, beep-beep, beep-beep, you know. [Chuckles] Just to get through. SM: So this is nothing [compared] to what’s coming, I suppose. BW: No. [Chuckles] Very [unclear]. SW: Oh no, we . . . we don’t assume this is the worst. This is nothing.

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