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Interview with P.C. Mangalick

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P. C. Mangalick was born in India. He grew up in India and ran his own business there. In the early 1970s, he and his wife came to the United States. In the mid-1980s, he and his wife established a charity hospital in Agra, India. SUBJECTS DISCUSSED: His business in India - marriage - the move to the United States - importance of discipline in Indian culture - his charitable hospital in India - the India Bazaar stores, import work, the startup of a wholesale business - Ashram group, the startup of the Hindu Society of Minnesota - vegetarianism - and the importance of helping other people.

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Interview with P.C. Mangalick Interview by Polly Sonifer Interviewed on June 14, 1994 at Mr. Mangalick's Minneapolis home

PS: PM:

Hello, Mr. Mangalick. How are you today? Wonderful.

PS: First of all, can you tell us just a little bit about the part of India that you came from? PM: We are from Agra. It is one of the big towns of UP, which is Uttar Pradesh, one of the states of India. That's where we have come from. PS: PM: PS: PM: PS: PM: And Agra is a big city, right? Is that the pink city?

It is one of the five big towns in UP. And you were born what year? 1913. 1913. 1970. And you came to Minnesota during what year?

PS: Can you tell me a little bit about what you were doing in India from 1913 to 1970? PM: Born, raised, educated, went into business, and worked for doing business. Then we came here. PS: Did you know people here when you came?

PM: Oh, two of our sons were here before we came. And we wanted them to come back to India. They did not want to come back. They decided that instead of going to India, they might as well invite us to come here and visit with them. Hence, they sent us two air tickets for "around the world." That's how we came.

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PS: Tell me a bit about your life in India. your whole life around Agra? PM: Yes. business. PS: PM: PS: PM: PS: We were staying in Agra only.

Did you live

We were in

What business were you in? Retail selling fabrics. Homespun? No, all kinds. Tell me about the family that you grew up in?

PM: I am the only son of my father. I have three sisters and all of us married. We come from a middle class family. Cannot boast of anything. PS: Did you have special training to start your business?

PM: No, after going to college, ending at 8 years, I started the business. PS: What did you study in college? These were the three

PM: Politics, economics, and English. subjects. PS: PM: Your English is very good. Yes, we are pretty good.

PS: And, so all of your sisters married as well. still in India? PM: PS: PM: Yes, they are all gone now. Gone, died? Yes, died.

Are they

PS: I'm sorry to hear that. to carry on the family.

So, you're the only one left

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PM:

Yes, yes yes.

PS: Tell me a bit about how you and your wife came to be married. PM: PS: Arranged. Arranged. Your family is Hindu? It was arranged by my people. That's how

PM: Yes. Hindu. you got married. PS: PM: PS: PM: PS:

And you didn't think anything. Nothing. (laughter)

Did you see her before you got married? No. No. Not even that.

After you were married?

PM: After married, yes, of course. PS: And how many years has it been now? Now it is 94.

PM: We were married in the year 1934. That's 60 years. PS: PM: PS: That's a long time. Yes. Long time!

This shows that arranged marriages can work very well.

PM: Anything can work, provided there is a sense of give and take. One has to have that -- otherwise, nothing works. PS: PM: PS: PM: That's right. No, not much. Were you nervous? Not that, but there is not much to brag about. Do you remember your wedding?

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PS: PM:

So, you don't recall anything in particular about it. No, nothing particular.

PS: Did you have children. PM: PS: Yes, we have nine of them. That's a lot. Tell me about your children.

PM: Out of the nine, eight are here in the states. One is still in India. That one does not want to come, and that's good that he doesn't want to come. He provides a place for us to visit and stay. Out of the eight, two sons and two daughters are here in the Twin Cities. One is in California. Another is in Michigan. One is in New Jersey. Another one is in Virginia. PS: So, they are all over.

PM: All over. And they are all well educated and well settled, doing very well in life. Nothing to complain, doing fine. PS: PM: PS: And do you have many grandchildren now? Lots of them. Do you know how many? I'll have to

PM: I wouldn't be able to tell you off-hand. count. (laughter)

PS: So, your children were all raised before you came here? They were all grown up before you moved? PM: Yes. Yes.

PS: As you watch your children parenting their children, what kinds of differences do you see between the ways that you raised them and the way they are raising their children here in Minnesota? Do you see any differences? PM: PS: There are. What kinds of things strike you.

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PM: Because we raised our children as very strict disciplinarians. Whereas the children here do not like that much of disciplining. It may be good. It may not be good. But, ultimately, what the results of the tree are in the fruits. The fruits is what kind of tree it was. PS: So, what kind of fruit do you see your grandchildren becoming? PM: We find our parents to be so good that we can be proud of them. Whether we brought them up with great discipline, whether it was bad or good. But the results have been very good. So, that's how we look at it. PS: So, you see them doing a good job parenting their children. PM: PS: Yes. Very good!

Are they raising their children in the Indian way?

PM: They are all trying to. And those who have followed the train are happy. Those who did not, are just plodding on. PS: Do you see any differences in the division of labor within the household? PM: PS: Yes. Yes. What kind of things do you see there?

PM: While in India, all of our children were required to take part in the household. And they did. Otherwise, it would have been very difficult for moma to carry on. PS: With nine children, I would think so.

PM: It was good for them too, because they learned a lot. They were together with us, that is me and my wife and their brothers and sisters. Everybody learned from each other. PS: Were your parents and other extended family members also around? PM: My parents had already passed away.

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PS: PM:

Okay.

How about your sisters.

Were they also around?

They were all married and had gone to their homes.

PS: So, you were more like a nuclear family living in India. Was that somewhat unusual? PM: No. no. There are all kind of families. happy that way. No problem. We were quite

PS: So, you were running your business, the fabric business, and raising nine children. And how did your children happen to come to America? PM: Okay, one of our sons had been going to a college. He was a very bright student. One day, about 9 in the evening, he came to us and said that he has received a telegraph information from a certain engineering college situated about 600 miles away from Agra that he has been admitted to the engineering college. He has to send so much money as deposit and fees and this and that. "Nothing doing," I said, "We are not going to send you to an engineering college. You are only a lad of 17 and you have never been out of the home. How can we trust you and let you go that distance all by yourself. So, send information to the college that you are not attending." So, we used to go for a walk early in the morning. So, I and my wife went for a walk. There was an elderly gentleman who also used to go with us. We mentioned that to him. He said, "Mr. Mangalick, you have done something very very wrong. It is difficult for any young man to get admitted into a college. And you have refused. I think you'd better go home and accept that information which is to be sent and tell them `I am sending the money and send him back to the college.'" PS: So, the elderly gentleman was going to send the money for your son to go to college? PM: No, he advised us to do that. So, we sent that information and that's how he went to that college. PS: So, your mind was changed by this gentleman that you walked with? PM: Yes, and he was very bright student. In the first year

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of the college, he established himself as one of the top students. We visited with him and went to see the principal. The principal said, "I'm very proud of your son." When I said that his younger brother also might like to get admitted, he said, "I'll get him admitted, not because he is your son, but because he is the brother of Mahesh." PS: PM: PS: So, Mahesh is your son who went first. Yes. And your second son is?

PM: Dinesh. So that's how Mahesh and Denesh both became engineers. Mahesh managed to get admission into University of Purdue. PS: By the way, how did he do, 600 miles away from home? So, this

PM: He went by train and he was fine. (laughter!) is how it happened.

PS: So, Mahesh finished his degree in engineering at the college in India, and then got into Purdue. PM: Yes, he came here for further studies, for his master's and Ph.D. also. In the meantime, Denesh also finished his engineering. Mahesh managed to get him admitted into the University of Minnesota. That's how both came here. PS: What year did they come to the United States. recall? PM: PS: I think it was 1965 or so. Do you

I couldn't be very exact. Was it hard?

How was it having them both leave India?

PM: It was hard because it was not easy for us to part with them. And it was easy for them to part from us. PS: Lots of tears?

PM: Lots of tears and lots of concerns. Where will they go? Where will they stay? What will they eat? How will they do?

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PS:

Were they married when they came here?

PM: No. no. I forget exactly who was the president of USA at that time. Johnson? When I got reading his life story, I came across and item of information that he got married when he was 24. And, that began a thought in my mind that it was time now for Mahesh to get married, because he was getting 34 at that time. So, I wrote a letter to Mahesh saying, "Why don't you get married? We will find a suitable girl for you." And he said, "Go ahead!" PS: Go ahead! Great! (laughter)

PM: We found a girl. He came. They both met temporarily and it was agreed on all parts that they would get married. PS: So, he came back to India to meet her. This was while he was already in studying in the United States. PM: Right. He had completed his MS and was working on his Ph.D.. He was at Notre Dame too. So, he got married and at that time, it was not that easy for the spouse to get a visa immediately. It took quite some time before his wife could get a visa. PS: PM: PS: PM: So, where did she stay? Whether at our place or at her father's place. So, she went back and forth. No problem. Did that work out well?

PS: But, your son had already left by that time. So, he left his bride behind? PM: Yes. (laughter) But, what can you do,

PS: I wouldn't like that very much. right? PM: You can't help it.

PS: Do you remember much about his wedding? first son, right? PM: No, he is the second son.

He's your

The eldest one is in the

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states here. PS:

His name is Amir Chand.

He lives in Fridley.

But, he wasn't here when Mahesh got married?

PM: Only Mahesh and Denesh were here. Then it was our turn to come. I'll tell you about how that happened when the time comes. PS: So, Mahesh and Denesh were going to school far away. You were back in India worrying about them? PM: There was nothing to worry about. do any good. PS: You're right. worry anyhow. It doesn't usually

It doesn't do any good, but sometimes I

PM: That's it. You might a well worry and keep on worrying. It doesn't do any good. PS: Did you arrange a marriage for Denesh in the same way? After he was here three years, he

PM: Yes. The same way. also was married.

PS: He was here at the University of Minnesota working on his master's degree? PM: Yes, he had already completed his master's. He was working for Control Data at that time. PS: I think almost everybody worked for Control Data at one time. (laughter.) PS: So, the marriage of your sons, do you remember what years those were? PM: Fortunately, it is the 25th wedding anniversary they are celebrating in July this year. So, it is 25 years ago, 1969 for Denesh. Mahesh was two or three years before that. PM: So, he's been married 27 or 28 years. children. They have

PS: So, now we're getting up to 1970, to the time when you came. Why don't you tell me the story about how you came?

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PM: (laughter) of it.

That is probably the most interesting part

PS: How did your sons get it into their mind that you should come here? PM: Polly, our culture does not permit the children to say NO to what their parents say. And, they did not want to tell us they did not want to come back to India. But at the same time, they did not want to come back to India to work. They were staying here and enjoying and also learning a lot more than what they could learn back in India. So, they got together and said, "Why don't we call them, let them see for themselves how we are living, and they might not ask us to go back to India." PS: Had you been here to visit them up until then?

PM: No. no. So, they sent us 2 round-the-world tickets. At that time in the year 1970, Expo 70 was being held in Tokyo. So, they sent tickets and said, "Why don't you visit Tokyo first." So, we went to Tokyo and saw Expo 70. That was our first visit outside India. We had never been outside India at all. It was very different. At times very difficult too because we are vegetarians. It was not that easy to find vegetarian food all the time everywhere. But, in any case, we went to Tokyo, saw the palaces of Japan. We came to Honolulu and stayed there for 10-12 days. In Honolulu, we managed to rent a room in a hotel where there was a kitchenette also, so we could cook. My wife could cook and she managed to bring groceries from a store and the cooking utensils were there so we managed to eat. PS: That's important, isn't it?

PM: Important, yes! (laughter) From Honolulu we managed to get to San Francisco, and then came to Minneapolis. PS: PM: PS: And, by then were both your sons living in Minneapolis? No, only Denesh. Mahesh was living in Cleveland, Ohio.

Who was Mahesh working for?

PM: Some company, I forget.

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PS:

It's not important.

PM: When we came here we found that they are doing very well. At first we [unclear] what we call climate. PS: What time of year was it?

PM: It was May of 1970. PS: They were smart not to send you a ticket in January, huh? PM: They were smart -- They knew it very well! (laughter) We started from India in the end of March. We spent a whole month in Japan, Honolulu, Los Angeles and San Francisco. The climate when we came in early May was wonderful. After seeing the climate and the greenery, we decided that we should not be asking them to go back to India. There is a lot of difference between the climate of India and the climate of USPM: This is one part which is most outstanding, important, is that the climate of the two countries differs so much. I personally like that part the most. PS: PM: The climate? In Minnesota?

The climate in USA in general is very very good.

PS: Most Indians say that the climate in Minnesota is too cold. PM: Cold or hot, it doesn't make any difference because ultimately what is the result. Good health! PS: We are very healthy here.

PM: The climate affects everything from the health of the people. This is what matters. PS: So, you came in May. How long did you stay in Minnesota then? PM: We stayed and my daughter-in-law was pregnant. She said that after delivering, she might like to work for somebody because there would be nothing for her to do accepting taking care of the baby. So, I said, "I don't like the idea of your working for somebody." And she said, "What

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else to do?" " Why don't you start your own business?" She said, "Even my father has not done any business, how can I do any business?" I said, "Your father has not been doing any business, but your husband's father has been doing business. So why not take help from him that is me." "Okay, in that case set up a store for us." So, I Iooked for different places and I admitted this, I need to rent the smallest place in Apache Plaza. A small store in the northeast corner is about 52 x 22 and there was nothing to sell. PS: You didn't have any idea what you were going to sell? PM: We didn't have anything to sell.

PS: But did you know what you wanted to sell? PM: We thought we might go into different gift items because India has been producing lots of handicrafts. And, we asked our son to get from their friends whatever they have from India that they are not using. Let us put them for sale in some other store. So he brought some things from his friends and as soon as we put them in the store they were gone. And, in the meantime, we sent word to India and at that time our youngest son, Umesh, he was there. I asked him to look for handicrafts and send shipments from there, so he did. Things kept on working like this. PS: Did you have any trouble with getting those things through immigration (customs?) PM: Everything worked out. In the meantime, somebody from Chicago told us that he would like to place an order for Indian goods through us, so we went to Chicago and he placed an order with us. We sent the order to India and the things were shipped from there to him, but because he had not paid any advance toward that order and he was not playing fair, he said, "I am not going to retire the documents from the bank and it is the responsibility of those things on us." And, he did not want to cooperate with us at all and we were deciding to leave for India at that time but because of this difficulty we thought we might as well stay on. PS: Permanently, or just for some time?

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PM: For some time, at least. PS: So how long had you been here at that point? PM: About a year and a half. PS: What did you name your shop? PM: India Bazaar. And, my son said that "Since we need you here for taking care of that merchandise which is sent from India, you should stay on and in order for you to stay on I will immediately become a citizen. And sponsor you for you stay." So this is how it happened. PS: How did you feel about that? PM: Fine, fine. PS: You wanted to stay at that point? PM: Well, not really. Because the circumstances were such at that point that we had to stay. PS: And your daughter-in-law was still working with you at the Indian Bazaar? PM: No, she was not quite interested in that. We were agreed on working on the business, and it was hard for us because. It is a lot of difference in working on this place and in India. PS: Tell me about some of those differences. PM: In India we had about 20 people working for us in the store. My job was just to sit at the counter, accept moneys from the customers, everything was being done by other people. Here we have to do everything. PS: Who worked with you? PM: My wife and my son. That's all. Dinesh was too busy. He was working with Control Data. He could not afford to spend any time with us. And we did not like to be so much involved as we were. We had to. There was no other way. PS: But you started the business to help your daughter-inlaw?

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PM: Yes. PS: So then she lost interest: PM: She lost interest. She did not have any interest at all. PS: Do you think they were trying to trick you into staying? PM: No. It worked. . . what I perceive is The Divinity's hand in it for us. Because it was all devised by Him in such a manner that way that He wanted us to do something for the good of the people. PS: So who were your customers, mostly? PM: Americans. PS: So the Indian community didn't shop here? PM: No, not at all. PS: Where did the Indian community buy their gifts and things? PM: I don't know whether they bought anything at all, but it was all Americans who came in and bought. PS: What was happening with your business in India at the time? Had you closed that down before you left? PM: No, no. Our eldest son was there; he was attending on the business. PS: When you first came you stayed with your sons? PM: Yes. PS: How did that work out? They had little children. Just one baby? PM: Yes. PS: I bet that was nice to be around your grandchild? PM: And then of course we rented an apartment for ourselves and my wife and myself were living in an apartment not very

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far from here. And we used to come to the store even in the winter. Someone gave us a ride. That's how it worked out. PS: They'd give you a ride to the store? You didn't have a driver's license? PM: I didn't have. PS: That's very nice that someone was giving you a ride. Who was it that was giving you a ride? PM: Some gentleman who had a store in Apache Plaza or he was working for somebody at Apache Plaza. He used to come here. He had to come. So that's how he gave us a ride. PS: How was it for you when you first came in terms of using your English? You had studied in English in the college. Did you find what you had studied was enough? PM: It helped. It helped. There was a difficulty in understanding the accent, but ultimately, it worked out. PS: At first were there any things that were hard when you were renting your apartment? PM: No, no, not much? PS: And, of course, you had your wife to cook so you got to eat good food. PM: Yes, yes. PS: And how was it for her do you think? You said she doesn't speak English very well, even now? PM: Yes, but she was in the store with me. And she carried on. It was fun for both of us to stay together and work together, and we had to leave home at about seven in the morning and be in the store till about 9:30, and by the time we arrived at home it was more than 10:00. PS: That's a long day! a week, right? And I bet you only worked seven days

PM: All the seven days. On Saturdays it was up to six, and on Sundays it was up to five. So all the seven days we had to work. Lot of work, lot of labor.

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PS: So it was no problem getting all the permits and the sales tax? PM: There was no problem. PS: You still had family living back in India you were communicating with because they were shipping you things. How did you communicate with them? PM: By letter. PS: You didn't use the phone and there was no fax. PM: There was no fax. PS: So then you were telling me you decided to stay on for awhile. When did you decide to stay permanently? When your son said he would sponsor you? PM: He had sponsored us and we were given [unclear] for a green card, and then we had to continue with the business. The business was growing and there was no other way. We had to continue on. PS: What was the hardest part about deciding to stay here instead of going back to India? PM: I do not follow the question. PS: I would think that making the decision to stay here, that there would be some things that you would regret, that you would miss about India, or that you would say I really want to go back to India for this. Was there anything that was hard about that decision to stay? PM: Okay, making the decision to stay was easier because of the climate. It was very healthy for us. In India I used to suffer from cough and cold all through winter. Here, not at all. In spite of the age, I was looking much healthier here rather than India. PS: So from a health point of view it was easy to decide to stay? PM: Yes.

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PS: And you weren't missing your family members back home? PM: We went back to India for a month or two sometime in 1972 to get our two sons married and that's what happened. PS: Did you succeed in getting them married? PM: Yes, yes. PS: Tell me a little bit about how you arrange a marriage for your son. PM: One of our sons to be married was a medical doctor, and the other one was in business, so we thought they should get a nice, beautiful, talented, educated girl and we looked for some and found . . . PS: How did you find them? PM: Through friends. three months. Both were married within a span of

PS: So you went back there, got them married, and came back here. Did you bring any of your sons back with you at that point? PM: One of our sons, our youngest son came in 1971, Umesh. And he was helping the business and that's how the business grew. We started another retail store in Crystal and another retail in downtown and then closed the retail store in Crystal and started a wholesale business in downtown. That's how business grew, money came and I ultimately, now I see the hand of Providence in that road? that He wanted us do something and that's how He designed everything. PS: So you believe that God had this planned out for you and you just had to walk through it? PM: Yes, because what we are doing now is ultimate result of what happened all these years. We have now, we have established the charitable hospital back in India. And, it is in that hospital we have put in all the amount of money we have earned all these years. If we did not have that money we could not have established that hospital. PS: So that hospital is open?

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PM: It is working. PS: Tell me more about that hospital. PM: We can tell you a lot about the hospital. Because the hospital is also a brainchild of mine, but again it is the Providence who designed and who planted that seed in our mind that this is to be done. If it were not He it we would not have done it It is in Agra? It was in the year 1985 that we decided that we should have a hospital. We bought a piece of land, got two rooms constructed there on it started with an outdoor clinic with medical doctor and five patients. Now there are about 20 medical doctors working full-time there with about 80,000 patients coming to the hospital every year. PS: Is this a free clinic? PM: Practically free. Because it does not work that way. If anything is free, it is not considered to be good. So it is minimal. They are asked to pay only a little. Yet, they are paying something. PS: Who pays for the rest of the cost? PM: He (God) pays for it.

PS: Is there a socialized medicine system set up in India? PM: As far as socialized medical care is concerned, there is and has been all through the hospitals throughout India were owned and established by the government of India and they were run for on a free basis for the poor. But at one time they were doing very well but now times have changed, and the medical doctors working for those hospitals are not very honest in their profession. Unfortunately! They are looking more for their own personal benefits. They go to the hospital only for a little time, come back, and carry on their own private practice. And that's how at the cost of government and public money, they are conducting their own private practice. PS: So your clinic is different? PM: Very different. One of a kind. PS: Do you have hospital It is not for profit.

beds too, where people stay when

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they are sick? PM: One hundred beds. PS: But mostly it is a clinic that people come to? PM: Yes, it is through the clinic that the people are put in the hospital as inpatients. PS: What kind of sicknesses do you treat mostly? PM: We started with eye and then changed from eye to everything, obstetrics, gynecology, medicine, surgery, opthamology, cardiology, orthopedics, and others. PS: Are you connected at all with the World Health Organization? PM: No, no. It's all private.

PS: Tell me the name of that hospital. PM: Shanti Mangalick Hospital. PS: Oh, you named it after your wife. PM: We did not want to name it after any person. We wanted to name it a general name. Then my sons and daughters said we will not have any interest in the hospital if it is not named after our mother. So they insisted that the hospital be named after their mother. PS: So how did she feel about having the hospital named after her? PM: Very good, very honored. PS: How often do you go to the hospital to check up on things there? PM: We go every year. We stay for four to five months even six months and come back and stay here for the rest of the year. PS: Which months are you gone? PM: October through April.

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PS: How come that doesn't surprise me? You were not telling the truth about liking Minnesota winters! PM: Well , as far as the winter is concerned, it is very severe. And we did not relish it but we had to because there was no way. PS: But if you could go to India during that time, I would! PM: Exactly. PS: Everybody would! So since you've been here now 24 years, in Minnesota, have there been any Indian organizations you have been involved in during that time? PM: It was back in the year 1974 or `75 or `76, I forget, that a person from India had visited and he came to our apartment and there he planted a seed in our minds that we should have an organization where we should get together at least once a month and start doing some religious activity. The idea was very nice. And two of our people, then was me, offered ourselves that we'll carry on. One month he'll invite and the next month I'll invite. So we started with that premise, invited our friends, carried on those religious activities and went on and on and on other people joined. They invited at their places so it grew. PS: What did you call yourselves? PM: I think it was Ashram at that time. But at the same time I did not like the way things were shaping up because of certain things which were done by the family of the other person. So I said I was not feeling that converted. And I started along with some other friends, another organization and named it as Hindu Society of Minnesota. That was back in the year maybe fifteen years ago or even early than that. It was no problem but, some people did not like that idea of our having another organization by the name of Hindu Society of Minnesota. So we carried on and there were two organizations now; Hindu Society of Minnesota and Ashram. And that's how they continued on. PS: Were they both pretty informal or did you have a priest? PM: We did not have any priests.

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PS: So you just took turns doing the leadership and were doing ceremonies singing in Bhajans. PM: Yes. PS: And how big were each of those? PM: Not big at all. Very small.

PS: Were there about 50 people, a hundred? PM: There would started getting And we bought a directed by the be about 35 -50 getting together. Now we together every week rather than every month. Japanese church in northeast Minneapolis director, who is God.

We started looking for a place. We did not have any place we just took turns, sometimes my place, sometimes his place - - in our homes. But that was not convenient. So we were looking for a place and that place was on sale. And we purchased it. There were three people who said, or rather I suggested that we all three decide to donate $5000 each and the bank will be pleased to give us more money for buying the building. It was $40,000. So that's how we started. PS: Was it hard to find people who were willing to give $5000? PM: Only three people. PM: I would think it would be hard to find three people. PM: No three was enough. And besides that $5000 we decided we would pay another $5000 each - - - $1000 per year in five years. So that's how we raised that amount of money. PS: Did that pay for the building then? PM: No not fully but down payment. And that's how the religious activities started. There were not many people from India, especially Hindus, in the Twin Cities but it grew in numbers and we had a larger family - - - my family was quite large by that time and they were all living here and there so it helped. Things work out. PS: So is the Hindu Society still going?

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PM: Very strong. PS: And you're still active in that? PM: Not much because now we decided instead of remaining active ourselves, it is better to let other people come in so we let other people come in and they are managing things, but we still attend. PS: Were there any other Indian organizations that you are part of? PM: Yes, I was a part of Indian Club sometime but there was not much interest for me, that's how I foresee. Somehow I was not much interested. PS: Have you seen any conflicts that have arisen between parts of the Indian community here? PM: I would say that there were not really happy relationships between Hindu Society and Geeta Ashram. PS: And what was that based on? PM: Geeta Ashram was organized by a person in India and we felt that it was more self-aggrandizement of that person. PS: Who is that person? PM: I would rather not say. Some of the people over here involved in Geeta Ashram were his disciples. He was a Swami. And there was nothing like that in Hindu Society of Minnesota. PS: Are there any social organizations you belong to? you socialize who do you spend time with? When

PM: My family and on Sunday the Hindu Society of Minnesota. My time is taken with Hindu Mandir. PS: What do you see as the major benefit of belonging to these associations? PM: Especially socialization was the major benefit. So many people came to know us and we tried to help such people in whatever we could and, I personally feel that we as Hindus or as Christians or Mormons or this or that have not fully

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understood the meaning of religion. We are more in outward form not the inward we are not going inside and I would say that Hindus even do not fully understand the in full of the word dharma. PS: I'm a little puzzled myself. I've heard the word. I don't know if I could say what it means. But would you explain it? PM: There is no synonyms in any other language. The nearest which we come to is religion but religion is not dharrma. Dharrma is the term of water to give coolness, it is the term of fire to burn and to give light. Those are the terms of those things. Every person, every entity, has a reason for being. And we should understand the reason of our being. What are we meant for? What is the purpose of our taking birth as a human being? Unless we understand that we may continue on doing those things in abundance but we are not actually fulfilling the purpose of our being in this core of humanity. PS: So do you see people having an individual purpose and organizations having a group purpose? Or is it purely an individual purpose? PM: Whether individual or group. It has to grow. The person has to grow into becoming that which is designed. We feel that we all have souls. We all have the same spirit in us whether we call ourselves Hindus, or Mormons or Christians. Our goal is the same. Whether we reach the goal this route or that route, the goal is the same. To get to the hub. But to say this is the only route, is not good. PS: So do you know your dharrma? PM: I think so. PS: And how did you discover that? PM: I personally feel that helping humanity is the best of dharm, unless we do it there is no use talking about it. That is maybe the best bet, but again there could be so many more ways. If I say that, that that is the only way, there could be other ways also. We as Hindus should inculcate in the minds of our imagination those qualities which are necessary for being, and this can be done only when we ourselves understand it, we ourselves follow it

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Unfortunately, what we are doing we are spending our time and energy just enjoying and not actually doing those things which are needed of us. PS: When you say we are doing, do you mean Indians or do you mean all people of the world? PM: I should say that it is incumbent at least on those people who call themselves Hindus. Should at least follow those principles. We can not force others to follow but we can at least follow ourselves. And if we follow ourselves, others might follow. We must set an example. PS: Is that a message you give over and over again to people in the Hindu community? PM: That is what I think. PS: Do you say that to them? PM: I do say. Instead of saying I show them the way in which I am doing. PS: So you use yourself as an example? PM: Yes. Because what I am doing at present is not for self-aggrandizement, me and my family. What we are doing is for helping humanity. PS: The hospital you are talking about? PM: Yes. PS: The works of that hospital is supported entirely by your family? PM: A bit here and a bit there. PS: But mostly your family. I understand. Thinking about activities outside the Indian community, are there any organizations that you are part of like a Chamber of Commerce or another business organization? PM: Not much. PS: You've pretty much stayed in the Indian community. You said the way people do business here is very different than

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in India. Were there any times that you experienced prejudice or racism because of being an Indian person or because of being culturally different? PM: No. At least we have not experienced any such thing. We have not had any problem carry on our business. Without any difficulty without any obstacle everybody has been very helpful. I don't see any problem anywhere. I didn't see any. PS: And how do you think your life would have turned out differently if you had not come here to say. PM: I couldn't say. Because now I see the hand of God in sending us over here in making us our money and I see a purpose in all that. His purpose that He wanted us to come and earn money and be in a position to establish that hospital. So I think that goal was helping humanity through that hospital. And that goal could not have been accomplished without our coming here and earning money, and that was accomplished. PS: So no idea how it would have turned out if you would have stayed in India. PM: No idea. I don't think - - -it may have been done, but it was done through this - - - coming here and having this . . . PS: The next section I'd like to touch on briefly is how you retained your culture values and how you passed those on to your children. Were there certain values that were real important to you that your children get or have or ways that they would live or their life? PM: We always have been very much what is vegetarian. PS: Have your children all been vegetarian? PM: No. Unfortunately no. But two of them are strict vegetarian, one who has become vegetarian after leading a life of non-vegetarian for some time. So another one, too, has become vegetarian and is turning to vegetarian now. PS: So what they learned when they were young, is cycled around and they are doing it again.

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PM: Vegetarianism is one thing which we prize most because in that vegetarianism we find and feel that the basic values of any religion; not taking the life of another creature for our own self is very important. PS: Are there any other values that are very strong in your mind? Working hard or being honest or . . .? PM: Those are the basic things. We should work hard we should be honest, we should be persistent because unless we are hardworking unless we are honest we cannot reach anywhere. We have to we should be doing all that in order to attain all that which is needed. PS: Have your children lived that way as well? PM: They are trying to.

PS: So you feel proud? PM: Yes. PS: You've been here now for 25 years. Have you seen changes in the Indian community over those 25 years in terms of who's here, the ages and where they've come from in India? PM: Generally, I'm finding that people are now coming back to their values. While being young they go astray but after some time they find that this is not a good way - - - let us come back. They are coming back. PS: They learn it the hard way. PM: Everybody. PS: Your youngest son is still living in India? PM: Yes. PS: And you're moving back to Indian September. PM: September, yes. PS: Are you going to stay with your son? These are your retirement plans, right? PM: We stay there every time we go there, and no problem. Many of us do that.

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Our daughter-in-law takes very good care of us. ordered a car with a chauffeur for us, for more don't have to do anything, where as here we have we have to cook, we have to clean, we have to do PS: The life in India would be pretty sweet?

We have delight, we to drive, everything.

PM: Very comfortable, if we have the money. have the money, it is not so comfortable.

If we don't

PS: When you go back to India, your plan is to stay there permanently? PM: Hopefully. PS: How old are you right now, Mr. Mangalick? PM: My date of birth is October 15, 1913. PS: So you are 81. Not bad! I hope I look as good as you when I'm 81. When you move back to India do you think your children who are living in Minnesota will come and visit you there? PM: Hopefully, they will. PS: Do they go back and forth now? PM: Yes, whenever they get time, they go. And whenever they go they stay with their one brother there. PS: So it's important to keep that one family member there! PM: Yes.

PS: And how did you decide to go back to India to retire. Would life be easier there? PM: Because last year my wife was not feeling well and she became weak - - - could not cook, could not clean, and that's how we had to go back to India in October last year. And during the year we stayed from October to April we decided we'd go back to the states and wind up our home and come back because life in India is much easier and be a part of a whole personal people that could help us and there is a host of people in the hospital who are there to help us.

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PS: Do you have any plans of what you'd want to do during your retirement in India? PM: Go to the hospital. Nothing else but hospital. All the time, day and night here as well as there, it is the hospital. PS: So your heart is really in this. PM: Nothing else but hospital. How to develop it, how to make it grow, how best can we help humanity. That's the only thing which is always in my mind. PS: Are there any other things that I didn't ask you about that you would like to talk about? PM: The most important message which I would like to relate to the people is that it is God who directs our lives. He has directed our life, that's how I look at it. It was through His planning that we worked only as a person could do as directed by the Director. We are only acting as directed by the Director, who is God. And we should honestly, sincerely, whole-heartedly do the work which is before us; keeping in mind that through that work we are doing something for humanity. Anyone! Anywhere! Everything is ultimately for helping humanity. If you do that work with that aim this is how I look at it. It may be a different way for some people, it may be liked by some people, but this is how I look at it. When you are traveling in a train, when a station comes, you look for a tea person, who is tea vendor. If the tea vendor was not there you feel lost. The tea vendor is doing something for us, by supplying tea which we need, although his goal may be making money. If we keep this goal of fulfilling the need in mind while doing the work, then we are achieving the same goal which is achieved by anybody by doing anything. PS: And what is that goal? PM: The goal is helping humanity. There could be thousands and thousands of ways. If we do all those things we are doing, anybody is doing, with honesty, sincerity, for helping the other person, not taking away from him but giving something. I don't know if I'm philosophizing. This is how I look at it. We should be trying to give what we have whether by way of physical, mental or moral; whether we have money, whether we have status, whatever we have

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talent, try to give. Giving is the most important value. Giving without hope of return, getting back, no. Giving.

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