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Interview with Y Nor

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Y Nor was 55 years old when the Khmer Rouge regime began in 1975. One of his sons was studying in Europe at the time. He was separated from his two eldest sons and they were killed. Two of his daughters died of illness and starvation. He and his wife and four surviving children were split up at various times in different work camps. Y Nor worked digging canals and building dams and maintaining rice and sugar plantations. He did not receive adequate medical attention for infections. They escaped to Khao I Dang refugee camp, then were transferred to Chonburi camp and then came to Minnesota.

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Several pages of the original transcription of the testimony of Seng Prom have been corrected. They were corrected on 2/17/02 by Beatriz Menanteau, at the University of Minnesota Law School. The corrected pages are the following: 4; 5; 7; 8; 9; 11; 12; 13; 14; 15; 16; 17; 18;19;20;23;24;25;26;28;29;30;32;33. TESTIMONY OF SENG PROM, on July 31, 1992, at the Cable Access Studio, St. Paul, Minnesota. The examination was conducted by Ms. Sharon Jacks. EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKS: SJ: My name is Sharon Jacks. And I'm a volunteer with the Minnesota Lawyers International Human Rights Committee; specifically the Khmer Archives Project. Today is July 31, 1992 and we are at Cable Access in St. Paul to interview Seng Prom from Cambodia. How old are you, Seng? SP: 41 SJ: Do you have any family members living here with you in the Twin Cities? SP: My wife and four children. SJ: Do you have any family that's still living in Cambodia or somewhere else in Southeast Asia? SP: Still in the refugee camp -- family in the refugee camp and maybe one in Cambodia. SJ: Who is it that's still in the refugee camp and Cambodia? Are they brothers and sisters? SP: My oldest brother and another sister in the refugee camp. And maybe another one sister in Khmer in Cambodia. SJ: Are you working here in St. Paul? SP: I'm working in Minneapolis. Almost close to St. Paul, but in Minneapolis. I work in the Hennepin County Medical Center as a Cambodian interpreter. SJ: Where was your home in Cambodia? What city? SP: My parents owned a home. At that time I don't have a home because I'm still single. And we do have one in the farm and one in the city. In 1972 my parent decided to get another small house in the city because they cannot live in the farm ~SJ: What city – SP: -- for the security for my children. Battambang City.

SJ: Battambang. Okay. Thank you. And so you lived – SP: At that time I lived with my -- all my youngest brother and my younger sister that not married. The other brother and sister that married, they are separate and they move away. They live with their family in a different area. They do not live with me. I am the second in the family, but I'm not married so I stay with my youngest brother and my sister. And my parent, he live in the farm. He come by and go to the farm. He brought the food and he bring supply that I need for my family that live in the city. SJ: So, you were in Battambang City in 1975 when the Khmer Rouge -SP: Actually I live in Battambang city along 12 years. After I'm 12 years old I move from the farm to the city because we don't have school in the farm area. So, my parents sent me to the school in the city. So, I stay in the Battambang City since I'm about 12 years old. Before 1975 I worked in school as the primary school teacher, but not really from the government -- licensed government. Just after -- just I know somebody that work in the school and they took me to the school and learned to be a teacher, but not really get a license to be a teacher. I start to do that since 1972 until 1975 when the Khmer Rouge took over. SJ: Do you remember the day that they came into Battambang City? What happened? SP: We heard a lot of fighting before the Khmer Rouge took over around the city. And the last minute that the Khmer Rouge took over, I got to see how the Khmer Rouge looked like. So, I stayed around the street from Phnom Penh to Battambang, the main road to Battambang. And they said the Khmer Rouge was coming. But when the Khmer Rouge come, I don't stay over there. I just moved from the area and I tried to go back home. When I get home - when I get home they said the people, like a school teacher or in the government officer, go to the meeting because you were to be in Battambang. One of my brother-in-law, he went to the meeting, too, but I'm not going to that meeting. I don't know what they're talking about "that meeting." I stay at home with my father and my youngest brother and younger sister. My mom, she's not home at the time. And she did took the key that locked the jewelry and diamond in the locker and she go to someplace to the town that's near to my - the farm area halfway over there. Most of the people that use to live in the farm and when the war - and they escaped the refugees was leaving the city, when the Khmer Rouge took over most of the people were happy because they feel like they are relieved they can go back to their home, home town, own place. And the people in the government - some people they say are happy because they feel like no war and no blood with the Khmer and the Khmer together. And some people tell me because-they agree, too, because there's no more fighting within the Khmer - the Khmer and the Khmer. So, it made some people happy. SJ: And when did that change?

SP: A couple days later, maybe two days - one day or two day, I heard that 12 people in the high rank government in Battambang was assassinated by the Khmer Rouge, including what we call lieutenant of the governor, the chief of the - we call VA Hospital and the administration - the school administration and the high called Samdech monk. In Cambodia we had the Buddhists. So, if you counted the Buddhists 12 people was assassinated by the Khmer Rouge right away. And they tried to recruit - tried to ask the people in the military put one place in the school. And after they took those people in the - in the truck and they assassinated those people by tie - the nylon rope tie. SJ: What did they do with the nylon? SP: I don't know. They tied you. They took it to the farm and they shoot those people. And they ask the people in the city they need to move to their own farm or area because they are afraid that -- or they're scared that we'd have the United States government drop the bomb on the city. They said we had a lot of CIA in the city. So, they need to clean up clean up a lot of the -- there were a lot more people that seemingly need to go back to the farm. SJ: So, did you go to your parents' farm then? SP: At that time I stayed with my father. And my mom she already left me behind because she tried to go to the farm first. I don't know what's wrong with her family problem because she went over there first and she took the key. When the Khmer Rouge took over, right away my father asked me what do I need to bring. One sack of rice, or - I said just forget that. People have - - we eat together. If we don't have enough food to eat, we starve together because I feel like this time here I don't know what to do. I do have three grandmom - - and three grandmom. One is a Cambodian, one is Chinese, one is Vietnamese. Because one is adoptive mom part of my mom- I have two aunts from part of my mom and they just put in - we called a motorcycle that has a trailer. Just took three grandmom back to their home town. SJ: And did you think you were going there to live for a long time or that you'd be returning to the city soon? SP: I don't think that sooner because I feel like it's hard to believe the Khmer Rouge, to trust the Khmer Rouge because I heard a little bit before the communist took over. SJ: And what happened then when you arrived to the farm? What was your life like there? SP: When we arrived in the farm the area that we used to live in the farm before, they said you cannot live here anymore. You need to move a little deeper inside of the jungle, like half of the mountain. And half of the farm. And those- that time they tried to recruit they put separate - the married man with the married man. The married woman with a group of married woman. And the small children with the small children.

SJ: And did someone take care of those small children then? SP: They just tried to take the people of that area to be a leader or to be in charge of each group. SJ: AndSP: And they tried to ask the people there, are you former military or former teacher because Anka need you. And after that they took those people and they never were returned. SJ: Does anyone know what happened to them? SP: They said just maybe not far away, maybe close to there what we call cooperation, in the area, we saw the body over there. SJ: Did you ever see the Khmer Rouge kill anyone? SP: I didn't see close in my eye, but I saw – they tied the people and they walked around them. The Khmer Rouge they had the security 12 or 13 years old. And they said these are the people that worked with the Lon Nol government. And they used what they call long - long stick - like the three - because he has a long - we chop it and it has a long -looks like a stick or something and hit around with it. They said this guy hit them with the Khmer Rouge. And the next morning when I go to work in that area I saw his body that covered through the dirt, but not covered completely. And I saw what he wore - we call a scarf and his clothes hang on the tree. And one time I saw 21 people, including the old people and the young people and the small children and the baby, they tried to escape from another area. I think maybe they want to go to Thailand because they speak Lao. And when they got lost in the cooperation that I'm living, they said, oh, we are friendly, you come here to eat with me. And they asked those people if – after they took all those 21 persons and they used the axe and bamboo, the piece of bamboo and killed all those 21 people. I didn't see it in my hand – my hand, but I saw that 21 people died. And I don't want to bring different topic about the rape under the Khmer Rouge because a lot of rape is talked about in this country. But where I live in Battambang - we talk about the Bowelabout the Bowel- well, we call it Bowel. The Bowel is the name of the place you go there and in charge Bowel. And we have some men that he - the group of the single men and single parent, single woman, he get two security guards with him and he get a gun. And each night he said he needed a woman come here to his room to get a massage because he's sick. And after that they disappear that woman. We don't know what's going on, what happened. Most of the time we are going to work early in the morning and we come back at night. And the people in charge over there in Cambodia called Ar Loy. I don't what his real name, but his name is Ar Loy. And in the evening, most of the time evening, they said, well, the woman come to my room and the woman give a massage to help me and after that the woman stay awhile with him. I don't know the whole night or whatever, because they did not allow the normal people go close to the people in charge over there. So, we don't know what happened. So, every night there are 13 woman missing. We

didn't know what happened. And one day one of the people in charge of the group of 30 people take a turn to get a massage for that man. And she know the problem. She said she will die. We don't know what happened, why she know that. When she go with them she said she will die. And after they do the trick they said I'm sick or I have something wrong. So, he just said -- he go to tell the people in charge, the big boss in a different area like 20 – 20 kilometers from that area. And the next morning they got a security guard Khmer Rouge security guard come to get him - the people that rape her. So, they took him to a different place and they shot him. And after that they tried to find out what's wrong with that 12 woman or 13 woman. And this time he has pop out, because each time we go work on the farm, that man – the man that raped the woman, he took the woman to the field and slit her throat and took all her clothes. Most of the time like 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning. So, this is part of the Khmer Rouge about rape. And sometimes they asked they people and the people not agree with the Khmer Rouge Anka because those people are criminals. And they asked the people in the whole town in the village tried to be a squad team in the United States looking to locate those people. We have a couple times they said those people try to run away from the Khmer Rouge. The commander of the Khmer Rouge - one of the team they say they tried to run to the Khmer Rouge or run out of the Khmer Rouge. So, they asked the people in the town go to chase him. SJ: And would people cooperate with them? SP: Well, no choice because the people had to do whatever they said. Some people just tried to work hard - really wanted to locate those people and some people just tried to move along with those people. And the Khmer Rouge hear a lot of people that resist, resistance - don't want to follow those people, we had one that was a student. He's a former student and his father was a colonel in military. And one of the Khmer Rouge in charge raped his wife. And after that asked him to get married with him. You get what I said? He raped that woman after he forced that woman to marry with that man. And after that they lived together that woman say that the people in charge rape her to her husband. And her husband got so mad and got so angry. And one day they said the man that married with that woman maybe tried to revenge or do something to him. He tried to cut him. But he's a smart man, too. He got a gun and he killed the people in charge of Khmer Rouge. And he got the gun and got the motorcycle to run away to what we call Thmorkol. And he lived in a place we call cinema. The place that –like we call cinema, movie theater and he stay over there. I don't know, a couple days. And when the Khmer Rouge and the military try to get inside, he shoot from the house - inside of - the outside of that building and a couple Khmer Rouge die. And they did ask bring the tank to destroy that building until they could - the tank to destroy and kill that man. The Khmer Rouge when they joined with the group, they separate from the people. Like the married woman, they separate most of the woman - married woman they stay home - not stay home. They stay in the cooperation but they work in the field. But the men, the married men, they sometimes go to a different area where they chop the wood or the bamboo. And for the young, the single people or the - we call the single woman, sometimes they switch around. They move around to the different place to another place. When they get the season - hot season or in the planting season so that those people are to work. Or

sometimes they recruit from those people to join with the Khmer Rouge military. But they need to ask what is your background and what is your father, what is your mother doing. So, they recruit and join with the Khmer Rouge. SJ: Did they ever try to recruit you as a young single man? SP: They never recruit me. But they just try to get -- they follow me because they feel like – you see, here we call capitalist and intellectual, more knowledge, more education and rich people from the wealthy family. So, they try to follow up to see what I'm doing wrong under the guidelines of the Khmer Rouge. SJ: So, they knew your background. SP: They're not sure. They felt like I'm - I was one - was born in that town and living the city, but they're not sure what I'm doing – exactly what I'm doing. SJ: And what did they have you doing there? What were the single men doing for their work? SP: Most of the time they recruit and work in the farm rural area. And sometimes when you're working hard they put like the people of the group in charge of people. People who work harder, they put you in charge for 30 people or 90 people. But most of the people that are in charge of 30 or 90 people, most of their ground is very good, the farming in the rural area, the parent, their father used to be a Khmer Rouge services. So, they took those people in charge 30 or 90 people. The people that are working hard but not sure of your background, they put like you're the top 10 people or three people working. So; early in the morning you need to wake up the other people in your group and go to work on the farm. All the others the other area like transportation or different area they need you. SJ: So, did you work in all those different areas? SP: Yes, usually. Sometimes in the rainy season we go to helping the farmer to grow crop. And the hotter season we go to collect the crop. Or sometimes in the hot season we work to dig the canal- canal to get the water. We do different kinds of jobs because we had to do that. They said you have to do it for Anka. So, you have to do everything that Anka asks you to do so. SJ: Were you ever in one of the positions where you had - you were supervising people? SP: I - most of the time I'm in charge of 10 people. And we have three group - first group through third group. I'm the first group in charge of 10 people. And after that they promote me until I - 90 people, but I'm not the first person. I'm the third person in charge of 90 people. And we had three people here because one is a president, one is a vicepresident, and another person we call like social- social person or social worker in this country here. The president used to be like we're talking about political, about you need

to believe the Anka. And the second person was the people like we call transportation, need the food, our supply to the group - to the group or team. And the third person we call a social worker. Who's sick, who will stay and who's not going to work. And what do they need for some clothes. Or what problem they cannot go to work. So, those are the three people in the team, SJ: Did you ever, personally, have direct problems with the Khmer Rouge because of resisting something that they asked you to do or defying their power? SP: I think most of the time I just feel I will die, so - but I have to do the labor work I'm doing. Until 1976 I think maybe some day I die. So, I try to Talk a lot to the Khmer Rouge in charge. I remember one time that the guy that worked with me, he's jealous of me, he's not happy with me. And did - we call chief of the village - promoted him to be in charge of the whole group. And at that time we had a meeting of maybe 1,000 people. And I go to talk, I said, the leader need to clean up, need to do from the top to the bottom; the leader not started from the bottom to the top. And my mom so afraid and so frightened, I said, yeah, I'm died. Because I'm not -I'm not worried too.much·because I'm single. Here, I'm die, I'm died. But, lucky, they just followed me and did not kill me. SJ: Is there one particular event during that time that really stands out in your mind? Something that happened to you or something that you saw? SP: We had so many times that we saw that happen, because we see the body that shoot and kill and one part of the body stay on the street and one part of the body stay on the farm. And the people die on the street or die on the farm, nobody knows those body. And the people's starvation not supposed to eat - the old people that die because of the children cannot take care of them. And the people - the pregnant woman, no food and no supply for the woman. And the kids drown in the water. When the rainy season the kids walk on the field - the farm field and get drowned. And sometimes we get snake bit snake bit, the poison snake. And the woman group - they put they group together and sometimes no food to eat. It's hard to describe when you saw a woman that used to be a former teacher, former student at the University with the starvation, no food to eat and they get diarrhea and just laid out on the ground and - without clothes – without property that they need to use there. I remember one time that the woman traded like the money because they give sex to the people in charge of the farm area that I saw take it because they are so hungry and they just traded for a couple eggs. (Could not understand this last sentence.) SJ: So, food was one of the major problems then. SP: They tried to have the people starvation or die from the food. SJ: And the people in charge -SP: The people in charge, usually they are really good. They can eat a lot of different couple times a day or at least two times a day, because they ask the people that work in

the farm or rural area and they are staying at what we call kitchen place. So, they can eat - three or four people they can eat in the kitchen in that area. So, they will now allow you to become too close to these people. If you work in the kitchen - you have a good job if you're in the kitchen under the Khmer Rouge. You can get some solid, some rice and some extra food that you can get from the kitchen. SJ: Can we stop for a minute? (A recess was taken) SJ: Are you thinking of any other things? We'll talk more about, you know, what we just mentioned like -- are there any other things that you're feeling like you would really like to talk about, orSP: Just is for the people. A VOICE: (Inaudible.) SJ: Oh, okay. You talked about a lot of different things this morning. I'm wondering if you can be a little bit more specific. You mentioned that you saw children drowning in the rice fields. Could you explain how that happened? SP: In Cambodia we have two big seasons; a rainy season and hot season. And most of the hot season is very dry and the rainy season sometimes rainy and flood. And the people work in the farm rural area. So we've - we ask those group of the people who work in the farm rural area and sometimes the floods come at nighttime. But in the morning you have to go in the morning right away to work no weatherman like Paul Douglas or channel 2, or channel 11 that this area get flood, get a lot tornado or lightning or thunderstorm or whatever, you had to go in the morning. Sometimes just wake up like 5:00 o'clock in the morning, you cannot see where, but you walk over there. You walk over there, the water on the floor across the street on the - we call the dam in the farm, you used to put - we call it dam. The small farm has a dam and the water cut across over there. And the kids just walk over there and pass by and float and we didn't see where. We're missing one or two people and we didn't see where they go. And sometimes we had the cooperation that we called kitchen where we had the cooperation the kids eat over there and they'd leave like 500 yards from the area – the kitchen area. And when the water's coming – a lot of water's coming, they just try to get to the kitchen to eat. Sometimes they can make to the kitchen, but sometimes they go back to go home because a lot of water passed by and float like that. And the kids missing and die, we don't know. It's not just the kids. The old people, too. And the people who not know how to swim. Even if you swim, you have difficulty, too, because sometimes the water will flow too, too hard. You cannot, because of the current water, the water that passes. And I mention about the snake bite because most of the people with snake bite is from the people from the city. Because the people from the city never used or know what is a poison snake or not poison snake. And the people in the farm they know that the -- the poison or not poison. So they can caught -- or they can catch the snake and -- to make like food for the people on the farm. But the people in the city

they didn't know what kind of snake poison or not poison. They just tried to grab, try to catch that snake. Those snakes can bit and get poison and die. Or sometimes they just work in the farm -- work in the farm area, the snake stay under what we call the patty of rice and you just try to grab it. And so the snake bite you. So, you see a lot of people die from -- and the lightning and thunderstorm, too, because when you work in the farm you have lightening and thunderstorm, you had to stay in the farm for each time you had to go there. SJ: You also mentioned that women would die of starvation or they would get diarrhea. You saw a lot of that sort of thing happening? SP: Yes, a lot because we don't have food to eat. We had to get some kind of rice, a little rice. And the people tried to mix a lot of vegetable and fruit. The people in the farm, they know what kind of fruit or what kind of vegetable they can mixture. Or they can go to catch like small fish or small -- like we call a scale (ph.) or crab to make the food. But the people in the city they get just one piece of rice, they don't know to just cook with rice. And sometimes you don't know and just grab it and sometimes you're hungry and you eat a lot of them and you get diarrhea and you get sick. Especially the people in the city, died faster than the people on the farm, because your body is not used to take all those – the farm food. And you have a lot of stress because your children move away, your husband move away. And you're used to staying in the car you usually stay in the city, clean water; but then you go to the farm, completely different. You have to drink the water from what we call - where the cow or the Buffalo step in the water from the raining, stay over there. You had to drink that water or sometimes the water in the farm a lot of mosquito, a lot of insects inside. So, you have to drink that kind of water. SJ: When people didn't have enough to eat, what sorts of things would they look for besides snakes? You mentioned earlier that many people ate snakes. SP: Any kind they can get. Small frog, some sometimes a cat or a dog. I remember one time I stayed with one of my team. And I'm sick that time. And they bring the food for me and they said it's good food. And I said what kind of food is it. Just eat it. And the next – a 2 couple days later I found that we had a cat- three small cat. SJ: Kittens? SP: Kittens. And they butcher three small kittens and gave me the food to eat. SJ: What were your living conditions like as far as where - your home and who did you live with? Did you live with your brothers and sisters? SP: Before the Khmer Rouge war.

SJ: No, after. SP: After we separate, we didn't see each other. SJ: For how long? SP: Two - more than two years. '75, '76, '77, '78. Then I can group my family back almost together. SJ: And then when you all came together again, is that when you left the country? SP: When we come together we reach - we start to go back to our old town, but the Khmer Rouge took it again - back to Cambodia or back to the jungle. That time that we had the Vietnamese coming - the Vietnamese coming and the Khmer Rouge tried to empower - in the morning the Vietnamese control, but at night the Khmer Rouge coming. So, the Khmer Rouge try to take the people to live in the jungle. And that time we saw fighting because of my brother, who used to be a farmer, former soldier. And I used to be like in school- a school teacher. And they always said that because two people we call two capitalists or two what we call agent capitalists - agent in the team, it was so frightening and so scared. And my father so worried about my brother and myself. But lucky we can get out. SJ: How long did you live in the jungle then? SP: We come and go, come and go a couple months. SJ: And then did you flee to Thailand, or – SP: I remember in 1978 we had the Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge fighting together. And maybe in February the Vietnamese took over in Cambodia. You remember, right? And that time we had lots of people split - the people live in the city, they try to run to the city to stay with what we call the Heng Samrin government right now and with the Vietnamese. And some people just stay caught trapped with the Khmer Rouge and stay with the Khmer Rouge. One time that I couldn't get out because the Vietnamese under with the Heng Samrin government, with the use of the tanks tried to destroy the Khmer Rouge between the Cambodian and Thai border. So, we tried to escape back to the city and we tried to run to Thailand. So we did not go deeper inside with the Khmer Rouge in the Thai and Cambodian border. One group of the people go to Thai, but another group try to reach to their own town so they have time to escape to Thailand. SJ: And what sort of conditions did you encounter when you were fleeing to Thailand? Did you pass through areas where there was fighting going on? SP: That time I remember on -October 1979, that time the Khmer Rouge stayed in Thai and Cambodia border and the Vietnamese seemed to be controlling more territory, more

land. The Khmer Rouge just come once in awhile and a couple people; not a big group. So, that time we decided to go to Thailand. The first time I feel like I don't want to stay in Cambodia. Maybe I can join with the resistance group at the border. When I go to the border, no, I changed my mind. No, I don't want to join the resistant group in the border. And I stay in Thailand only one month. And after they sent me back to Cambodia in 19 -I think '79, one group of the people. June or July 1979, one of the group is sent back to Cambodia by the Thai government. SJ: By the Thai government? SP: Yeah. SJ: How long was it then before you were able to make it back into Thailand? SP: I think maybe June or July I go back to Cambodia for a couple months until -- I remember my older son was born 10 days, so we decide to come back again to Thailand. I think July, August September, October. Three month. SJ: And then how long were you in Thailand? SP: We got in Thailand in 1979. I think November 1979 until June 1981. SJ: And did you come to Minnesota to reunite with other family members? Or how is it that you ended up in Minnesota? SP: I don't have any family in Minnesota. When I was in the refugee camp I did wrote a lot of letter to the people. Sometimes I would write Cambodian, sometimes I'd write French, sometimes I'd write English different letters, different country and different place. And I say what country that offer me, just go to that country first. And one day we had the one man that live in St. Paul here, he put in a bulletin note in the camp and said please to locate my family, my - I used to live in Cambodia we'll call Pursat. When I go over there, I take a look at - I tried to ask somebody around my area, do you know these people and any family relate to this man - this person in United States. Nobody know. So, I wrote a letter back to him. I said I could not find anybody that relate to your family. And he wrote another letter and said do you want me to sponsor or to come to the United States. Please write your name and your birthday and your family member. And I talked with my wife and my wife said, oh, I don't believe that because we spent a lot of time. In Thailand we got only 10 baht per day, maybe - I don't know equal right now - maybe 40 cents, 30 cents, something like that. And we had spent 7 baht already from aerogram. So, I can send only three aerogram. And she said, oh, don't waste the money to send aerogram, too much paper already. I said I'll just send one. After that I sent one paper. He tried to sponsor me through Catholic Charity. So, then I came here. This is the reason I live in this state here. SJ: And what has your experience been living here in Minnesota?

5 SP: Well, a lot of people agree with me, very cold. But I think a lot of people if friendly. And I think maybe I feel like it's my - my home town or my place that I can talk with a lot of people. If I need something, I know what to do. So, I feel it's just a little while to see what happen. (inaudible) SJ: Okay, I'm wondering if we should ask – if I should ask you some more specific questions -you know, I don't know how you're putting all this together - about his brothers being recruited into the Khmer Rouge and his other brother being a part of the government and get into some of that. Or howA VOICE: (inaudible). SJ: Yeah. How do you feel, Seng? How long are we? A VOICE: (inaudible). SJ: How long? 45 minutes. Yeah, about 45 minutes. A VOICE: (inaudible). SJ: Okay. So, we have half an hour still. Are there other things that you feel that you want to bring out? Or do you have any additional questions I could ask? I'm just feeling really – A VOICE: Yeah. Do you have anything else that - do you feel like we've covered everything you want to cover, Seng? Is there anything else you want to cover? SP: I don't know if you want to get into political or what. I don't know. SJ: Not political, no. A VOICE: Not so much that. Let's stick to the history of what happened. You've done just a great job and I'm not trying to push you, but if there's anything elseSP: I think right now the Khmer Rouge, still the power, they're still strong in one of the resistant groups. Why are they still strong? A VOICE: I don't know. SJ: Yeah. SP: Because like inside a government, what we call corruption government. And the people have no place to go. Yet if they join the Khmer Rouge they get some food and they feel maybe the Khmer Rouge change the ideas and will have the country do better.

SJ: You know, if you'd like, we could at the end here ask one question, something to the effect -A VOICE: (Inaudible). SJ: Yeah. Or what concerns do you have about Cambodia now, or - A VOICE: Can you answer that? SJ: Because we don't want to get too deep into politics. A VOICE: That's really not the purpose of this. SP: I don't know what you want to ask me. I can answer, but – SJ: I'm thinking of what you just said. To elicit that response from you, I could ask you the question: What are your feelings today about the Khmer Rouge? And then you could respond to some of your concerns about that they're still in power. Would you like to do that? Would you like to have that in? SP: In the camera? Am I to answer what I feel? A VOICE: (Inaudible). SJ: It's what you feel. A VOICE: Ask it again. SJ: Seng, what do you feel about the Khmer Rouge today? SP: So far I say Khmer Rouge still a strong military. And the people that we call- in the farm area, rural area and the people that we call hopeless who join with the Khmer Rouge because they feel maybe Khmer Rouge with change their mind or their policy to make the country better. If you live in the city right now, it's difficult for your life, no job, hard to get education. Life in Phnom Penh is very hard and daily lives are very hard. So, you need to get a lot of money to support your family. And the people in the rural area are still left behind. And the people in the refugee camp when returned back to Cambodia, I don't know why the United Nations can't help those people to get a job, to get a place to live. Or the people inside of Cambodia welcome those people. So, those people are hopeless; yet nobody helped them a lot. So, this is the problem with those government too, because they said, you know, if they go back to Cambodia, I don't have any farm I don't have any money to provide my family. So, I just join with the Khmer Rouge. And especially they never get any training. They used to live in the jungle 10 or 15 years. They just have a gun in his hand so when they go back to Cambodia to a new life farming or business or what kind of job or what they can do. So, I feel afraid about they send the people already repatriated deportation the refugees back to Cambodia.

SJ: Thank you. Thanks a lot, Seng.