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Interview with Huai-Chang Chaing

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Chiang was born February 15, 1915, in the city of Sunjiang, which was later incorporated into the municipality of Shanghai, China. His father was a technician employed by the Chinese Bureau of Engraving and Printing. Chiang arrived in Minnesota January 9, 1945, to enroll as a graduate student in entomology at the University of Minnesota's College of Agriculture in St. Paul. He received a master of arts degree in 1946 and a doctorate in 1948. From 1948 until 1953 he served as a research fellow in a project on biological control of the European corn borer, which entered Minnesota in 1943 and had become a troublesome pest by 1947. In 1953 Chiang left the project to become an assistant professor of biology at the University of Minnesota, Duluth. From 1956 to 1958 he studied as a Guggenheim Fellow at Cambridge University in England. In 1957 he became an associate professor in Duluth, and in 1960 a full professor. In 1961 he returned to the university's St. Paul campus to teach ecology in the entomology department and to head continuing on the corn borer. In 1968 Chiang initiated international cooperative research on the corn borer at the International Entomological Congress in Moscow by bringing together entomologists from ten countries and designing field tests to be carried out in their own countries and reported annually at fall workshops. The group met in Minnesota in 1974. Since 1975 Chiang has played an important role in initiating scientific exchanges between the United States and the People's Republic of China. In 1975 he was a member of a delegation organized by the Committee for Scholarly Communication with the People's Republic of China, jointly sponsored by the National Academy of Science, the American Council of Learned Societies, and the Social Science Research Council. This early delegation presented lectures and visited Chinese academic institutions. In 1978 Chiang took his family to China and lectured in Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou. In 1979 he was delegation leader for a group from the United States Department of Agriculture that concluded an international agreement with the Chinese Ministry of Agriculture. Also in 1979 Chiang coordinated a visit to Minnesota by Chinese entomologists and plant pathologists who attended the International Congress of Plant Protection in Washington, D.C. SUBJECTS DISCUSSED: Student life in China during the Japanese occupation, 1937-1945 - arrival of Chinese students at the University of Minnesota during and after World War II, and their relatively large number in the entomology and plant pathology departments at the College of Agriculture - research on biological control of insect pests both at the University of Minnesota and various universities in China - international exchange of scientific research through visits of Chinese scholars to the University of Minnesota and reciprocal visits of University faculty to Chinese universities. COMMENTS ON INTERVIEW: Chiang is an important source of information on the intellectuals in Minnesota's Chinese community, particularly those who studied at the University of Minnesota during the post-World War II period. He also provides material on the many scholarly exchanges between University faculty and Chinese scholars that began in the late 1970s.

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Huai-chang Chiang Narrator Sarah Mason Interviewer October 8, 1979 University of Minnesota Saint Paul Campus Saint Paul, Minnesota

Sarah Mason Huai-chang Chaing

-SM -HC

SM: I’m talking with Professor Chiang Huai-chang at the University of Minnesota Saint Paul campus on October 8, 1979. This is an interview conducted under the auspices of the Minnesota Historical Society and the interviewer is Sarah Mason. Maybe could you begin by just telling us a little bit about your own background and your parents and family in China where you grew up, just briefly? [Chuckles] HC: Alright. My father was a sort of technician. He was employed by the Chinese Bureau of Engraving and Printing. And he designed some of the patterns on the dollar bills and so on. SM: I see. HC: And I was born in a city called Sunjiang, and now it’s part of the Shanghai municipality. And I was born in 1915. Then my parents moved from Sunjiang to Peking, where my father took that position with the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, when I was four years old. And then that’s where I lived, in Peking, ever since until I left . . . until the war. And I went to grade school and high school and the three years of college until 1937. And then the war between China and Japan broke out. And then the college was moved from Peking to the interior, sort of just ahead of the Japanese army invasion. And then I ended up in Kunming, K-U-N-M-I-N-G. SM: I see. And which college was this? HC: That’s in the province of Yunnan. Yunnan. And for those people that lived through that age, that’s the other end of that Burma Road. SM: Oh. Could you tell us the name of the university you attended in Peking and then in Kunming. HC: Yes. It’s Tsinghua University. T-S-I-N-G-H-U-A. SM: I see. 1

HC: And then that’s the university I attended for three years. And then this university, along with three others all moved from Peking area to the interior. Then when we ended up in Kunming, they formed a sort of a . . . associated university called Southwest Associated University. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: I know quite a few went to Chungking, I think, but this one . . . this group went to . . . HC: That’s right, this one went to Kunming. SM: I see. HC: Yes. Yes. And some universities went to Chungking, that’s right. And so I graduated from college in 1938. And actually, we made a stop in Changsha, from Peking to Changsha, and then we spent the one semester in Changsha and then moved again. SM: I see. I see. So the constant . . . it was a difficult time. HC: [Chuckles] That’s right. That’s right, yes. The one semester . . . yes. And the good thing was that we were young, so we enjoyed the whole thing. [Laughter] SM: Oh, you did enjoy it? HC: That’s right. SM: That’s good. Yes. Because I suppose it was a makeshift . . . HC: That’s right. And let’s see . . . we walked from Changsha to Kunming. SM: Oh. HC: And they say it is one thousand miles, but that’s Chinese miles, and it’s about like five hundred kilometers. SM: Five hundred kilometers. HC: Yes. SM: I see. How long did that take? HC: It took us thirty days. Yes. 2

SM: Oh. That’s surprisingly fast [chuckles] I would say. HC: Well, yes. SM: For such a long distance. HC: And especially considering the mountainous terrain in that area. SM: Oh, yes. HC: Yes. SM: Well, Kunming is quite beautiful isn’t it? HC: Pardon? SM: Isn’t the area around Kunming quite scenic? HC: Quite scenic and hilly, mountainous. SM: Really. HC: Yes. And then from Changsha to Kunming we have to go through a province called Guizhou. SM: I see. HC: And that is very mountainous. SM: Oh it is? HC: Yes. Right. SM: I see. Well, that was quite an experience. HC: That’s right. That’s right, yes. SM: So after you graduated you came to the University of Minnesota? HC: No. I graduated in 1938 and then I served as a research assistant and there was no graduate program in China. SM: I see. 3

HC: But there are research institutions. And so I served as assistant to a professor, and I learned a lot. I had a major in biology in college, and then it was during the five years as assistant to this professor that I became specialized in entomology. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: Who was that professor? HC: The professor’s name is C.L. Liu. L-I-U. SM: I see. Is he still living? I suppose he . . . HC: No. No, he’s passed away. Yes. SM: I see. Well, I’m really curious how you picked University of Minnesota. [Chuckles] HC: Alright. SM: How you heard of it! [Chuckles] HC: Yes. Yes. Yes. Now this Professor Liu got a Ph.D. from Cornell University. SM: I see. HC: And then it was one of Cornell’s professors who came to Minnesota as the head of a department—of entomology. SM: I see. Who was that? HC: And that’s Professor William Riley. SM: Oh, yes. I’ve heard of him. HC: I see. SM: Yes. Wasn’t he at Lingnan University? HC: That’s right. That’s right. SM: My father taught at Lingnan University for a period of time. HC: Oh, I see. 4

SM: Yes. I don’t remember William Riley, but I remember hearing about him. HC: Now have you heard of Dr. Franklin Wallace? SM: Yes. HC: I see. SM: He was a friend of my father’s. HC: Oh, I see. Yes. He’s a . . . SM: Yes. He’s still around. HC: He’s around, oh yes, very much, very active. SM: Yes. He was there in the 1930s for about four years or so. HC: Well then he would also be one that you could visit with. SM: Yes. Yes, I think I’ll try to get in touch with him again about your life here. HC: Yes. Yes. SM: Because I imagine there were some students that came from Lingnan University. HC: That’s right, that’s right. SM: I don’t know if there are any . . . HC: Either that, or I know he has a good friend, a Chinese student, made good friends. SM: Oh. HC: Yes. Yes. SM: Wow. Who is still around here you think? HC: No, not here. SM: Ah. HC: At the other . . . the Chinese scholar went back to China. SM: I see. 5

HC: Yes. So from that aspect . . . yes. SM: Oh yes. HC: Right. SM: Oh, so William Riley was in Kunming then. Oh no, he was [unclear]. HC: Then Professor Liu wrote to Dr. Riley on my behalf. SM: I see. HC: And then that was still during the war. SM: I see. HC: Yes. So it was through that connection. And also, I was interested in ecology. And at that time, Minnesota has a very famous ecologist by the name of Royal Chapman. SM: I see. HC: And he was . . . yes. He was the dean of the graduate school at [University of] Minnesota for a while. And then he had untimely illness and died of thrombosis. SM: I see. HC: And I knew that this person passed away, but I felt that Minnesota will still be a leading institution if I want to study ecology of insects. And so then this Professor Liu also encouraged me to come to Minnesota, and wrote a letter to Professor William Riley. And then, in fact, they fixed me up with a part time assistantship. SM: I see. HC: And then when I came . . . I started working with Dr. Alex Hodson. SM: Hodson? HC: Hodson. SM: Like this building? HC: That’s right. SM: Oh . . . 6

HC: That’s the name . . . namesake, yes. SM: What was his first name? HC: Alex. SM: Alex. HC: A.C. Yes. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: Well, that’s interesting. HC: Right. And Dr. Hodson was just a young professor then, and he took me on. SM: He was an entomologist? HC: Yes. He’s an entomologist, yes. He’s an insect ecologist, yes. SM: I see. HC: So I became his student and his protégée. SM: I see. HC: And he was my advisor and became my mentor and good friend and counsel and we had a tremendous rapport and relationship. SM: Oh. HC: Yes. And so I got my degree. Well, I got my master’s in . . . well, I arrived January 9, 1945. SM: I see. Yes, that was before the war was over. HC: Before the war was over, yes. And let’s see . . . yes, then I got my master’s in 1946 and then my Ph.D. in 1948. SM: Certainly very fast. Were you already familiar with English and so on? HC: Yes, we learned English in high schools and in college. 7

SM: I see. HC: But frankly, I had to relearn it after I got here. SM: [Chuckles] HC: As far as conversation and real comprehension and so on, although we did the read and we could write somewhat. SM: I’m sure it helped anyway. HC: Yes. Yes. And in those days . . . maybe I should just speak for myself. I came here to get an education and with the full intention of going back to China. And so we worked as hard . . . well, yes, well, I just say that as hard as we could manage. And we’d forego a lot of these things that the American students took for granted, say fishing season, do some fishing or hunting and that sort of thing. SM: I see. HC: And we are not the first . . . well, I wasn’t. And so I didn’t take in any of these activities. So that does leave a little more time to study than the local students. SM: Right. HC: Yes. SM: I see. But there were some Chinese student organizations weren’t there? Or was there . . .? HC: Yes. There was a student association type of thing, yes. SM: Do you know what it was called? The Chinese student association, or . . .? HC: Probably just that. SM: Club or something. I don’t know. HC: Yes, yes, yes. SM: But you weren’t too active in it? HC: No, no, no. SM: Would that have been true of quite a few students? They were too busy studying or . . .

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HC: Yes. I would say that some are more active than others. Yes. And in that respect you may visit . . . I don’t know whether he would want to visit with you, but a Dr. Joseph Lin. SM: Oh, I’ve heard of him. I’ve never met him. HC: Now he’s a vice president of 3M. SM: Yes. HC: So he’s in a different league from say a professor. SM: [Chuckles] Well, I don’t know which is higher, but . . . HC: [Chuckles] Yes. But either he or his brother was active in the student association, yes. Yes. SM: I see. He or his brother, I see. So maybe some of them who needed that more, you know, to do with [unclear]. HC: Yes, yes. Yes, that’s right. That’s right, yes. SM: Since you had such a good friend in this Alex Hodson, maybe you didn’t feel the need so much. HC: Oh yes, yes, yes. Yes. SM: I see. HC: And well, for example, yes. Now I didn’t mention something else is that my wife . . . or the lady who is my wife came with . . . together. SM: Oh, you both came together? HC: Yes, to the United States. SM: I see. HC: But she had a fellowship at Smith College in Massachusetts. SM: I see. HC: Yes. In fact, we were friends. We were going steady, you may say. And her professor was in the United States. SM: Oh. 9

HC: Now she was in organic chemistry. And her professor is a chemist, was in the United States. And the professor lined her up for an assistant . . . or a fellowship in Smith College. SM: I see. HC: And so she is ready to take off, and that put me to think of maybe I should do something, too. SM: I see. HC: And that’s how I started talking to my professor, that Professor Liu, and then made some contacts. SM: I see. HC: So we did manage to come together. SM: Ah ha. HC: And then she went to Smith College and then I came here. SM: I see. HC: And after about the one semester, then she transferred to Minnesota. SM: Oh, I see. HC: Yes. SM: That must have been quite a change from Smith, a small college, to a big university. HC: That is true. That is true, yes. SM: But she liked it? HC: Yes, she liked it. She liked both places. Yes. But she liked me better, I suppose. [Chuckles] SM: That made the difference. HC: Right. [Laughter] SM: What is her name? HC: Her name, maiden name, is . . . well, her name is Zoe, Z-O-E. 10

SM: Zoe. HC: Yes. And maiden name is Shen, S-H-E-N. Yes. Right. [Zoe-ing Shen] SM: And now she takes your name at the end . . .? HC: Pardon? SM: Does she take your name at the end of it? HC: Right. Oh, yes, yes. Yes, correct. Right. SM: I see. Oh, it would be interesting to talk to her, too. HC: [Chuckles] I see. SM: Would she be willing, do you think? HC: Well, I can check with her. SM: Would you? [Chuckles] Okay. HC: Yes, sure. But she didn’t stay in graduate work very long. SM: I see. HC: And well, she could have finished up her degree, her master’s in biochemistry, but then we had a child. SM: Oh, I see. HC: And then she gave up for after a while, yes. SM: I see. So she was in organic chemistry. HC: That’s right. That’s right, yes. Yes, yes. SM: And so you’ve been here since that time. HC: That’s right. Alright. Now in 1948 I finished my degree. And then the department at that time had a new project, research project. It’s called European corn borer, an insect damaging corn. It’s a . . . SM: A corn borer? 11

HC: Yes. Corn borer. It’s a species introduced from Europe as the name implies. And it just got in Minnesota about 1946 or 1947. And so Minnesota . . . well, the legislation appropriated some money to study that. SM: I see. HC: And so it was Dr. Hodson again that asked me if I would be interested to stay for a couple years, and to gain more experience before I go back. And then they do need somebody to work on this insect. And so that’s how I started on a research project on the European corn borer. SM: I see. Wow. And that led to other things, I suppose. HC: That’s right. And in fact, I’m still on that project. SM: Oh, really? HC: [Laughs] Yes. SM: Oh, so it’s a very big project then. HC: Yes, yes, yes. Right. And alright, so that changed the . . . well, then so that’s how we stayed. SM: I see. HC: And then meanwhile we had another child. And so somewhere down the line it was about 1950, then we decided for the children’s benefit, for sure, and for our own opportunities and so on, so we decided to stay in the United States. And then because our children were born in America, so we are eligible for petition to change the status of visitors to permanent residents. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: Well, then I’d say by after the war then you could have applied for citizenship. Or did you want to? HC: Well, ah no, we didn’t . . . we weren’t thinking of that at that time. SM: I see. Yes. HC: But if we could have, I suppose there are legal ways of pursuing that if we wanted to, yes. SM: I see. But you didn’t want to do that. 12

HC: Not until . . . it was not until sometime later that we decided to stay. SM: I see, because you didn’t think of it as a permanent arrangement. HC: Yes. Yes. At that time we came as a student and finish up and go home, yes. SM: Well, I understand there was quite a bit of hardship among the students here, Chinese students here during the war if they were cut off from their funds. Do you know anything about this? HC: I am not familiar with that, partly because we did not rely on funds from China. SM: I see. HC: Because alright now so . . . so I mentioned that Dr. Hodson managed a research assistantship. SM: Yes. HC: For my graduate work. And so that per day, well . . . well, okay, then when I came, when I came for Tsinghua University, I was on furlough. SM: Which university? HC: Tsinghua. SM: Oh, I see. You were on furlough from there. HC: The place I worked as a . . . Oh yes, yes alright, now I didn’t mention, I didn’t mention something that was . . . I did say that I graduated from Tsinghua University and then stayed on in the Tsinghua University Agricultural Research Institute, Division of Entomology as a research assistant, and from 1938 to mid-to late 1944. So that was about what, about five years or so. SM: Yes. HC: Five years plus. And then at that time the university has this program, the assistant that worked for five years, they’re entitled to one year’s of salary. SM: Oh, I see. After they leave? HC: Well . . . so they could go abroad for advanced training. SM: Oh, I see. That’s a good idea.

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HC: And then, however, at that time the money, they were in tremendous inflation, spiraling inflation during the war, toward the end of the war. SM: Right. HC: And so the money was not worth very much. Even so . . . when I say whole year, I may be wrong. Maybe [it was] half a year, or a whole year but half salary. But anyway, that money wouldn’t add much, but then we were able to convert to American money. SM: Oh. HC: And then so we had that [unclear] which amounted to about maybe eight hundred dollars. SM: Oh . . . HC: Now, for one thing, from that money, we booked the passage. SM: I see. HC: And then when we get here we still . . . oh, I still had about eight hundred dollars left. SM: I see. HC: And so that plus the assistantship was able to sustain us through the graduate work. SM: I see. HC: And you are right in that some students, they [were] supported by the [Chinese] government. Then they would have difficulty, yes. SM: Do you know whether the Chinese government was interested in sending Chinese students here for agriculture? HC: Yes. SM: Some did come here? HC: Yes. Yes, and during that period . . . now I arrived in early 1945. And the war ended late that year. SM: Yes. HC: So from 1946, 1947 and 1948 there were a big influx of Chinese students to the universities in America. And Minnesota, for example, there was at one time there were half a dozen Chinese students in entomology alone. 14

SM: Oh. HC: Now when I say in entomology alone, actually I should say just say in entomology. SM: Yes. HC: Because for some reason entomology did attract a lot of Chinese students. SM: Yes. That’s very interesting. HC: Very interesting. And that could very well have gone back to Dr. Riley’s contact. SM: Ah. HC: Yes. SM: Ah ha. HC: And then also agronomy attracted a number of students. SM: Yes. HC: And plant pathology. SM: That’s what I’ve heard, yes. HC: Right. You know, let’s see . . . during that 1940s, 1950s, Dr. Stakman [Dr. Elvin Charles Stakman] in plant pathology, Dr. Hays in agronomy and plant breeding. SM: Dr. Heis? HC: Hays. H-A-Y-S. SM: Oh. Yes. And Stakman is that STEAK . . .? HC: Uh, Stakman, S-T-A-K-M-A-N. Yes. Now these were world-renowned scientists. SM: I see. HC: So it’s a small wonder that they attracted the Chinese students and other foreign students. SM: Oh, so that explains it. HC: Yes, that’s right. 15

SM: Yes. And Stakman was in plant pathology? HC: In plant pathology, yes. SM: I see, and I imagine that in the post-war period the Chinese government was particularly interested in reconstructing . . . HC: Building—that’s right—their scientific expertise. So they sent over quite a number of people. SM: Yes. HC: And then there was another batch in agricultural engineering. SM: Oh. HC: And there were ten in one batch that came. They all came for either for special training or for a master’s program. But anyway, some did finish master’s programs and perhaps some did not. SM: This is all in the post-war period? HC: Post-war period, right. SM: I see. Well, does this interest in entomology among the Chinese students go back before the war? Or was this a post-war . . .? Do you know if there were many students studying entomology here before the war? HC: Mmmm. SM: I wonder. When did Riley come here? Do you know? HC: Dr. Riley came in . . . SM: Well, I could find that out from Franklin Wallace, probably. HC: Yes. I couldn’t tell you, I . . . SM: Probably Franklin Wallace would know. HC: Yes, yes, yes. He would know. He would know. SM: So it probably began with William Riley. 16

HC: Let’s . . . before you leave here, let’s see if we can pick up a copy . . . Dr. Hodson, after his retirement . . . he retired in 1974 and he wrote a history of this department. SM: Oh, he did. HC: Yes. SM: That might be very helpful. HC: So we’ll pick up a copy, see if there’s a copy around. SM: Oh, maybe he mentioned the Chinese students. HC: Oh, I don’t know how detailed he has there, but he did have a listing of . . . or a summary of the foreign students. SM: Oh. HC: Yes, yes, yes. SM: That would be very good then to see that. HC: Right, right, right. SM: Wasn’t there a Hoffman here, too? Or I’m wrong . . . maybe he wasn’t in entomology. HC: Oh . . . SM: Maybe he was more in biology or something. I think he also taught at Lingnan University for a few years. HC: Oh. Oh. Oh. SM: I’ve forgotten his first name but I think it was William. William Hoffman. HC: William Hoffman. SM: He was a mentor of Franklin Wallace, I think, and went to Lingnan University and introduced that university to Franklin Wallace or got him to come to Lingnan. HC: Oh. SM: But . . . HC: Well, my impression was Riley was instrumental in getting Wallace over. 17

SM: Ah. Oh yes, that might have been a more important influence in that. HC: I see. I see. I see. Yes. But that name Hoffman does ring a bell, but I couldn’t just connect what the connection is. SM: It’s probably before you came here. HC: That’s right. Oh, yes, yes, definitely. Definitely, yes. Yes. SM: That’s very interesting, that connection. Well, was entomology, was insect control a particular problem in Chinese agriculture? Or was it this personal influence of . . .? HC: Oh. Alright. Alright. No. Entomology is a study of insects. And now you don’t want a lecture on entomology, but . . . SM: Oh yes, that’s alright. [Chuckles] HC: Yes. [Chuckles] The insects as a group, is the largest group of animals. SM: Oh. HC: So you have large varieties of insects. Large and small. And then actually it’s only a small proportion of them that are so-called pests. SM: Yes. HC: Alright. So entomology then can be studied in two ways. One is as a branch of zoology. Just because so many . . . they are animals, and there are so many of them and such a diversity of them. So we have a number of people who study insects as animals with no economic bearing. SM: I see. HC: And then there are those emphasizing the economic aspects, which is very important in itself. Alright, now, for China, the Chinese students, those that came also belong to both groups. SM: I see. HC: Some are interested in taxonomy of insects, how to classify insects, like this Professor [unclear], when he came . . . SM: [Unclear]. HC: Yes. He’s a taxonomist. 18

SM: I see. HC: But when . . . after he went back, he still did his taxonomy, but also changed to practical work and so on. And then for myself, when I came, I didn’t . . . all I wanted was to study ecology of insects. And then it was after I took that post-doc research fellowship that I got into the practical field. SM: I see. HC: Alright. So . . . SM: That was here in . . .? HC: Yes, yes, yes. And now so that applies to the students from China in general. Some are in practical fields, some are not. SM: Okay. HC: But now, apparently, there’s . . . China has more emphasis on practical aspects. Yes. SM: Well, they go together, I suppose. [Chuckles] HC: That’s true. That’s very true. Very true, yes. Yes. SM: I see. So this group of visiting scientists this summer . . . HC: Alright. SM: Are there many entomologists in that group? HC: Yes. SM: Or all kinds of [unclear]? HC: Yes. Yes. Okay. In that group, first of all, there was this International Congress of Plant Protection. It’s a . . . every four years. SM: And that’s here in the United States? HC: Yes. Now the year . . . the time before was in Moscow. SM: Oh. HC: And then this time, this year, was in Washington, D.C. 19

SM: I see. HC: And before that, the one I attended was in Paris, for example. SM: I see. HC: But anyway, the Chinese, at one time they were not sure whether they will send people to attend such international congresses if there are people [attending] from Taiwan. But now . . . well, since last year, they relaxed on this restriction. And so they came in a group of eight scientists, five of them entomologists, and three plant pathologists. There were to be five plant pathologists, there were to be a group of ten, but two of them for personal reasons could not make it. And so we had eight scientists. SM: I see. HC: Now they had their conference in Washington, D.C., and just before the conference . . . alright, now you mentioned that some are my acquaintance. SM: Yes. HC: There’s one definitely, Professor Chu, C-H-U. SM: C-H-U. HC: Yes. And he is a deputy director of the Institute of Zoology of the Chinese Academy of Science in Peking. SM: I see. HC: Now he and I were colleagues when I was working in Tsinghua University. SM: Oh. HC: But anyway, I offered to help them . . . well, first of all, I asked them if . . . since they came all the way from China to the United States, will they be interested in seeing some of our institutions, the universities and so on. If they are, then I would be happy to make some arrangements for them. SM: Oh, I see, so you were in touch with them. HC: Yes. Yes. SM: Through the conference? HC: Well, no, that’s something I did not mention. One is that I went to China in 1975. 20

SM: Oh, yes. HC: As a member of the insect control delegation of this committee. SM: Oh, of this committee. HC: Yes. SM: Okay. That’s the Committee on Scholarly Communication with the People’s Republic . . . HC: Yes, with the People’s Republic of China. So during that trip I made re-acquaintance with some of my old . . . my earlier friends. SM: Ah. HC: Dr. Chu is one of them. SM: I see. HC: Alright. In 1978, our whole family, my wife and I and three children, we returned, we went to China on a personal . . . on a purely personal visit. SM: I see. You still have close relatives? HC: Yes, yes, yes. And so even though that was on a personal visit, but I was still invited to give lectures and so on. SM: Oh. HC: In three of the cities. SM: My goodness. HC: And so, again, it was during that period, I made more contacts with the Chinese entomologists. SM: I see. Where did you lecture? Which three . . . were they at universities? HC: In Canton, actually Canton, that’s . . . that’s Professor [unclear]. SM: Oh, he’s at Canton? HC: He’s in Canton. 21

SM: Is that . . . what is that university called? HC: Chung Shan. Chung Shan University. SM: Is that located partly on the old Lingnan campus? HC: That’s right. SM: Oh . . . HC: That’s right. That’s right. SM: Oh, I see. HC: Yes, yes, yes. SM: I thought that, but I wasn’t sure. HC: Now have you been in China? SM: Yes, I lived there until I was eighteen, when my father was teaching there. And we lived in Canton. HC: [unclear] SM: Yes. Yes. [Chuckles] HC: Oh . . . then you still . . . you had quite a bit of language. Although you probably . . . a lot of ... SM: Yes. Well, we spoke that before English, but now it’s very rusty. HC: Yes. Yes. SM: I can understand, you know, when I hear it . . . HC: And then you speak Cantonese? SM: Cantonese, yes. HC: Oh, how wonderful. SM: Yes. I wish I could refresh it a little bit. HC: Yes, yes, yes. I see. 22

SM: I would like to go back to visit Canton [unclear]. HC: Yes. Yes, I see. You haven’t been back visiting since? SM: No, we came out in 1938 just a little after . . . Well, my father stayed until about 1951. HC: Oh, I see. Yes. SM: I finished high school in Shanghai and so I came to go to college in 1948. HC: Oh, oh, I see. SM: I haven’t been back since, but I’m saving my money for it. [Chuckles] HC: Yes. Are you the China specialist in the Historical Society? SM: Yes. Yes. HC: Oh, I see. Yes, yes, yes. I see. I didn’t know that. I thought you were just a . . . a generalist. SM: Oh. HC: But I didn’t realize. And more and more we talked I’m . . . more and more I realize that you know a great deal about China. SM: Oh. Yes . . . [unclear] HC: I see. How interesting. Yes. Yes. Well, that’s very good. Very good, yes. SM: Well, let’s see. You were talking about your re-acquaintance with these . . . HC: That’s right. That’s right. SM: Yes. HC: And so you asked . . . alright, now in Canton I had three appearances. SM: Oh. HC: And one, say at the University, and one in the city. SM: I see.

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HC: They gathered a number of entomologists and plant protection scientists and I had a sort of public presentation. SM: Mmmm. HC: And then had a seminar or a [unclear] with a sort of sit down and discussion group and so on. And that’s pretty much the format in Canton then in Shanghai and then in Peking. SM: I see. Was that at a university in Shanghai? HC: Shanghai there’s an Institute of Entomology. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: And at Peking? HC: Peking, that’s that Institute of Zoology. Yes. SM: I see. Where professors . . . [unclear]. HC: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. So they are my sort of like host institutes. SM: I see. HC: Right. But alright, so . . . so I had sort of a continuous interaction with them. SM: [Unclear]. HC: Yes. And so I feel it would be nice if they could make the most of this trip. SM: Sure. HC: Now then the . . . I got more than I bargained for. SM: [Chuckles] HC: What it was is when I offered to help, it’ll be just like say if we have a visitor from Europe. And then he may ask me or I may offer to help, say I will contact my friend, say if he’s interested in entomology. If he wants to visit say Illinois and California or whatever, then I will just write letters or make telephone calls. SM: Sure. 24

HC: And say Professor So and So from France would like to visit with you and what about the schedule on say September 1st to 2nd or 3rd. SM: Ah ha. HC: And then I would assume that this French colleague will pay his own way to get there. SM: Oh, yes, I see. Yes. HC: Right. And but now the word came back, he said, well, they will be very appreciative that if I would help them in that, and they say in their delegation they have alumnae of Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, California-Riverside, and California-Berkeley. SM: Oh. HC: And they’d like to visit their alma mater[s]. SM: That’s very interesting. [Chuckles] HC: That . . . that . . . that’s fine. And they say they like to put this on a receiving side pay. SM: Receiving side? HC: Receiving side pay. Now that is sort of a coded word; meaning that we have to pay their incountry expenses. SM: Yes. HC: And so . . . and then when they arrive they pay . . . they come to Washington, D.C.—that’s on their own. They come for the International Congress. SM: Yes. HC: And they stayed in the Embassy. SM: Oh, they stayed in the Embassy. HC: Yes. And it was . . . SM: So that would cut their expenses. HC: Yes. Very convenient, only a ten-minute walk from the hotel. SM: I see. 25

HC: But anyway, once they take off from Washington, D.C. they . . . to Urbana, to Madison, to St. Paul, we have to pay. SM: I see. Ah ha. HC: Alright. And then they say they’d like to have a reciprocal group to visit China. SM: Oh, sure. Ah ha. HC: So, in other words, if we can pay their expenses while they are here, they would entertain a group from us when in China. SM: Sure. That’s fair enough. HC: That’s fair enough, yes. And then many people are very enthusiastic about it. SM: Sure. HC: Yes. But anyway, at that time I said, “Oh, this is more than I bargained for.” SM: [Chuckles] HC: But anyway, I went over the exercise and it got the . . . no, it so happened that the five places they named also have at least one person that I know who either was on the 1975 delegation, say entomologists, or on another delegation also organized by the Committee of Scholarly Communications. SM: [Unclear]. HC: And so I was able to contact people who have been in China and would be happy to serve as hosts. SM: Sure. HC: But then the trick is how, say, he can get the money. And then what is involved is this is all perhaps too much detail, but what it involved is we have to transport them from one place to another and then the institutions will have to share the cost of air travel, see. SM: Oh, yes. HC: And so we managed to have the money scrounged and then each place lined up a very good program. SM: Ah ha. 26

HC: And for example in Minnesota, the eight scientists. And they also brought a language expert as their [unclear] younger people. SM: Oh, I see. HC: And so we had a luncheon by the dean of agriculture and a dinner by the vice president of agriculture and a dinner by the president of the university. So it was a warm and very courteous reception for them. And then of course we have a good academic program lined up, so they had exposure of our plant protection science progress. SM: I see. Did they give talks? HC: Yes, they also gave a talk, right. Oh, yes. They were . . . they all were able to converse in English, because that’s another observation on my part, too. Because they were the ones they picked to attend the International Congress, they must be able to converse in English. So, as a result, they are all in their late fifties, sixties, that age group. SM: I see. HC: And in a way, some are quite old, like late sixties, they should be retiring. And yet they take on the chore like that, very exhausting trips, and . . . because they just don’t have the kind of expertise in the age groups of thirty, forty. Yes. SM: So these were all trained maybe before the Communists [unclear]? HC: Yes. They were all trained . . . well, not all, out of the eight I think seven. No, out of the eight maybe six were trained in this country. SM: Oh, I see. HC: Yes. SM: I see, six out of the eight. HC: Right. SM: That’s quite interesting then. HC: Yes. SM: But it’s kind of a gap, though. HC: Yes, that’s right. That’s right. And then some were . . . during the arrangement, they want to add Cornell because they have one that’s graduated from Cornell. So I had to make some 27

rearrangements. But so . . . so it was a very interesting experience for all of us. And I’m sure it was quite an exposure for the recent plant protection science advances in this country. SM: Oh, yes. HC: Yes. SM: Oh yes, that must have been . . . yes. HC: Right. SM: So are these…. [Recording interruption] HC: …position. One, the delegation leader you may say, is a vice president of the Peking Agricultural University. SM: Oh, that’s very [unclear]. HC: Yes. And then the deputy leader is a vice president of the Southern China Agricultural College. And incidentally, that is the . . . now after the liberation, and they restructured their educational system. So like Lingnan University in Canton, the agriculture part was taken out. SM: Oh, I see. HC: And then that there might have been agriculture in Chung Shan University was also taken out. SM: Oh. HC: And combined into the South China Agricultural College. SM: I see. And that’s in Canton, too? HC: In Canton, yes. SM: I see. Where is it located, in the city? HC: Oh . . . SM: Or maybe not right in the city? HC: Outside of the city. 28

SM: Outside the city. HC: Yes, yes. SM: So that became the South China Agriculture College. HC: That’s right. Yes, and they did that throughout the country. SM: Ah ha. HC: Yes. SM: So they consolidated their agriculture . . . HC: That’s right. And now they don’t have a university like ours have all kinds of colleges. SM: Ah. Yes. HC: So agriculture we’re taking out to farm agricultural university or agricultural college, and technology we’re taking out, and so on. And so it ends up like Chung Shan University. Now it’s still called comprehensive university, meaning they are not technology only, and then not agriculture. They specialize. SM: I see. HC: But so-called comprehensive still only involves humanities and social sciences and natural sciences. Yes. SM: And natural sciences. HC: Right. SM: And would that be the same at Lingnan then, that’s become a comprehensive university? HC: Like who? SM: Lingnan University? HC: No, Lingnan is no longer in existence. SM: It’s no longer . . . that’s right. HC: That’s right. SM: Chung Shan is [unclear] at that location. 29

HC: Yes, yes. Chung Shan took over. Yes. SM: Right. I see. HC: That’s right. That’s right, yes. SM: I see. So that’s liberal arts and some natural sciences. HC: Liberal . . . that’s right. That’s right. SM: See, that’s very interesting to know that. HC: Yes. Yes. But anyway, we were talking about that composition of that delegation. SM: Yes. HC: So one is the vice president of Peking Agricultural University and one’s South China Agricultural College. SM: Yes. HC: And then that Dr. Chu I mentioned is the deputy director of Zoology Institute. And then one of them is a deputy director of forestry research or something, so several of them are in high administrative positions. SM: [Unclear] most of them. HC: Yes. Yes, but most of them are still scientists as well. Yes. SM: I see. So it was really a top level group. HC: Yes, yes, yes. Right. Right. SM: So they teach and administer then. HC: Yes, teaching, research, and administration. SM: Oh, yes. HC: Right, right, right. Then in a way I wish that were not the case. Because these people, they put it quite frankly, they say for us maybe only say five years more of service, because they are up in age. SM: Sure. 30

HC: And in other words, but they are also saying is whatever they . . . say . . . on this trip, whatever they absorb, will have limited impact. SM: Oh. HC: Now if say there were people in their thirties, forties, then they will have ten, twelve, twenty years of influence. SM: That’s right. HC: But that’s not the case. Now what [they are doing] right now is that they are trying to remedy that situation. SM: Yes. HC: And that brings up the program that they have and Minnesota has of educating their scientists, scholars. Yes. I don’t know how well you are familiar with that, but Minnesota is having quite a program and sent a delegation over there. SM: Yes. Well, I just saw what was in the paper and this newsletter but I don’t know many details. HC: I see. Yes. Yes. SM: But it does sound like it’s more than most universities. HC: Yes, more active than many of the universities. SM: Yes, it seems that way. HC: And one person you ought to interact with is Sally Flax. SM: Okay. Sally Flax. HC: Flax, right. She’s at the office of international programs. SM: Oh, I see. HC: Yes. 373-3793. SM: Okay. HC: Yes. 31

SM: Oh, so she could give me the details of those particular programs. HC: Yes, those programs. And then Joe Mestenhauser, right. You mentioned his name. SM: Oh yes, I did talk to him. HC: And their office is having a reception for these Chinese scholars that have arrived during the last months, two or three months. SM: I see. HC: And we have now about . . . about ten scholars. SM: Oh, ten are studying here now? HC: Yes, yes, yes. And one arrived early . . . the earliest arrival was late June. SM: I think I saw an item in the paper. HC: Yes, yes. That’s right. SM: Was that an entomologist? HC: Yes, yes. That’s right. That’s right. And then another arrived in early July, and then five more arrived two weeks ago, and three more, so there’s something like ten right now. SM: Ah ha. HC: And then there is going to be a reception Thursday afternoon in that . . . East River Road [location]. SM: East River Road. HC: That international students’ advisors office. SM: Oh, is that where that’s located? HC: Yes, either that, or that international . . . yes, maybe international center. SM: Oh, international center. HC: Yes. SM: I wish I were going to be here. I have to go to Winnipeg this week. Is it this . . .? Oh, is it next week or this week? 32

HC: This Thursday. Will you be . . .? SM: Oh, yes. I have to leave tomorrow for Winnipeg. HC: Oh, oh, oh. SM: That’s too bad. Maybe I can find someone that could go for me and take notes on that. Yes. It would be a very interesting [unclear] to meet them. HC: Yes. Yes, it would be a good opportunity to interact with some of these people. Yes. Some may speak Cantonese. [Chuckles] SM: Maybe. [Laughter] If they haven’t outlawed it. HC: Right, right. SM: But I’ve heard people say that they find people very eager to speak it. HC: Oh yes. SM: At least it’s still [unclear]. HC: I see. I see. I see. SM: But I’ll try to find someone that could go. Is it open to the public? HC: Well, they do have an invitation, but you call up Joe Mestenhauser’s office. SM: Oh yes, he would probably . . . HC: Yes, yes, yes. SM: Yes. That would be very good if someone could go and make observations on that experience. HC: Right. Right. Sure. SM: Well that’s . . . I’m really disappointed I can’t go myself. HC: Yes, that’s too . . . unfortunate. Yes. SM: Well, maybe there will be some more events. HC: Well, there will be other . . . yes. That’s right. 33

SM: So are you working closely with these entomologists that are studying here? Or is there more than one? HC: No, only one. SM: Just one. HC: Only one entomologist. And even that I’m not working very closely. SM: I see. HC: And she’s interested in a very specific aspect of insect physiology or insect biochemistry. And then what we are doing is we are trying to find a professor who matches the scholar’s interests most closely. SM: Oh, yes. HC: And so in this case it’s a . . . [Brief interruption – sounds like rustling noises while he searches for information] HC: Yes. Well, it’s a Dr . . . .yes, [James W.] Bodley. SM: Bodley? HC: Dr. Bodley. SM: Oh, Bodley. Yes. HC: And he’s with the . . . in the medical school. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: So that . . . her interest is more in the medical biology. HC: Yes, in the bio . . . yes, well, in biochemistry. SM: Biochemistry. HC: Yes. Yes, in fact, it’s interesting again that Dr. Bodley received a research grant from the National Institute of Health to study like some aspects of protein synthesis. And then this Chinese scholar, Mrs. Zhai, [Qi-Hui Zhai] and yes, this . . . 34

SM: Oh, I see. Yes, this is a new kind of spelling of it, so . . . HC: Yes, I know. Yes. SM: Familiar with . . . q . . . oh, qi. HC: Yes, Q-I, H-U-I. Alright, that’s . . . that’s her last name. SM: And you pronounce it “chai”. HC: Zhai, yes. Alright. Now her research is also in that area. SM: Oh. HC: But with the insect eggs, with insect eggs, tiny eggs. SM: Ah, I see. HC: And Dr. Bodley . . . SM: So they’ll be working together? HC: Well, yes. They . . . she’ll work in his lab. But to Dr. Bodley, that is kind of an interesting approach; he never used anything smaller say than a chicken egg. SM: Oh, I see. HC: And so he thought, well, that’s interesting, to have someone working on eggs but on a smaller scale. Yes. SM: I see. HC: And so now come back to say that she is working on insects, but yet her most of her time is spent in Dr. Bodley’s lab. But she does interact with an insect physiologist in our department, Dr. Richard Jones. SM: Richard Jones. HC: Yes, Richard Jones. And so the . . . SM: This is the biology department then? HC: Entomology department. 35

SM: Eco-biology? HC: No, entomology. SM: Oh, entomology. That’s a separate department from the biology. I was interested to see here this . . . but maybe that’s a mistake. HC: Oh, this is my mistake. SM: A mistake, okay. HC: Yes, this is a mistake, that’s right. Yes, it should be department of entomology. Yes. SM: I see. Well, is she a person who was trained before the liberation? HC: Okay, she graduated from college before the liberation. SM: Oh, she’s earlier, too. HC: From Nanking University. SM: Oh, I see. HC: Peking. Yes, very famous university. SM: Yes. HC: Yes. And then so her English is quite adequate and her scientific training was quite adequate. And then she spent two years in Russia. SM: Oh, she did? HC: Yes, after the liberation. SM: I see. So she’s quite high level . . . HC: So she’s quite a . . . well, accomplished scientist, yes. And most of these scholars, the status, their status at the University of Minnesota is the Honorary Fellow. SM: I see. HC: And this is something that like a . . . some professors take a sabbatical and come here for a year, that sort of an arrangement. And so the person will have the privilege of using our libraries and our laboratories and attending seminars, lectures, and so on, without paying any fees. Yes. 36

SM: So that’s of good help to them. HC: Yes, yes, yes. SM: And then there’s some from Minnesota in China. I don’t know if there are that many, but there’s . . . HC: Not yet. SM: Oh. HC: Not yet. SM: Oh yes, not yet. HC: Yes. SM: Isn’t there a Dr. Liu in the language department [unclear]? HC: Yes, yes, yes. SM: [Unclear]. HC: Yes. Yes. Professor Liu . . . yes, I don’t know what their programs are and he’s in Asian language. SM: Yes. HC: He teaches Chinese at this university. SM: Ah ha. HC: And now he’s it and that’s where she is in Peking and she . . . I thought she is going to study or has a research project of the translation the contemporary style versus old style or something, I’m not . . . don’t quote me on that. Yes. SM: Yes, but something to do with language. HC: Yes. But she is over there, she is over there. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: Well, I suppose that would be an obvious thing that would be useful to study. 37

HC: Yes, that’s right. SM: There’s not much known here. HC: Right, right, right. But this delegation that just returned from China and there’s a Professor Robinett, a Betty Robinett. SM: Oh, yes. What field is she in? HC: She’s the director of the program of teaching English as a second language. SM: Oh, I see. Yes. Well, that would be . . . HC: Yes. Now she or their delegation had come up with the agreement with China. So there will be an institute to teach English in Peking or somewhere. And then, from the little I know, is somewhere down the line, some of the graduate students in her program will go over there. SM: I see. HC: Yes. Yes, so when first . . . when you say that there will be some from Minnesota, I was thinking of that program. SM: Oh, I see. HC: And they will be going there, and I don’t know how big a group. SM: Yes. Well, I suppose there aren’t too many here that would have enough language capability to do such research in China. HC: That’s right. That’s right. Yes. Yes. SM: Maybe only a few professors left that could . . . or, well, someone like yourself certainly could, too, though. HC: That’s true. Yes. Yes. SM: I suppose in the science field. HC: Yes. Yes. SM: Do you contemplate doing that at any time? HC: No, not at this time. Yes, several institutions, they would like me to go there, spend a little more time than just a visit. 38

SM: Than just a visit. HC: Yes. But right now I don’t see any feasibility of that. Yes. SM: You’d rather just go to do some lectures or [unclear]? HC: Well, yes. Well, those lectures were, again, sort of busman’s . . . bus driver’s holiday. SM: [Chuckles] Busman’s holiday? HC: Yes, busman’s holiday. [Chuckles] But now I didn’t mention that this last July I went to China. SM: Oh, in 1979? HC: 1979, July 1979. SM: Oh, you’ve been back quite a few times. HC: Three times since 1975. SM: Three times. HC: Now this one is . . . I was the delegation leader or a leader of a delegation involved in biological control of insect . . . of pests. SM: Oh. HC: And that is a program under the USDA. SM: I see, and that’s the same field . . . the same thing that Cho is interested in, that’s coming . . . of that same . . . HC: The [unclear]. Professor [unclear]. SM: Oh, [unclear], I mean. Excuse me, yes. HC: Yes, that’s right. That’s right. SM: [Unclear], yes. HC: And so we had a delegation of seven and we spent about a month in China. SM: I see. 39

HC: And that is a reciprocal agreement between the U.S. Department of Agriculture and their Ministry of Agriculture, the Chinese Ministry of Agriculture. SM: I see. HC: And again, it’s part of the intergovernmental agreement, science, technology, culture, and so on, and so on. And in 1979 there will be three groups, biological control of pests and germplasm that is the plant . . . plants stop. Like corn seeds and soybean seeds, the different varieties, or cuttings of fruit trees and so on—so plant varieties. Another is livestock management technology and animal disease treatment and so on. SM: I see. HC: And so . . . yes, so I was there last July for a month. SM: Ah ha. These groups will be coming here? These three groups in biological . . .? HC: Well, our counterpart, the biological control group. Now we went there July 5th and returned on July 30th. And their group came on the 16th of August and returned on the . . . well, they left California on the 10th or 11th of September. Yes. And then they’re going to make another stop in Honolulu. So it will be three or four more days. SM: I see. HC: Yes. Yes. And then the general government posture is they’ll be long-term exchanges. SM: Oh. HC: And say for biological control, we’re talking about utilizing the natural enemies of insect pests, of pests then, as well as exchange of technology. SM: I see. HC: So we hope to send, for example, scientists to China to find us the natural enemies that can be useful in this country. SM: Oh, that can be used here. HC: Yes. And then they may send their people to do the same here. Or they may come over here and learn the technology that we have more to offer. Yes. SM: I see. So the United States is somewhat ahead of them on that? HC: In technology, right. But they have rich resources in terms of the type of organisms. 40

SM: I see, richer than here? HC: That’s right. Now, part of . . . well, I have to qualify that. It’s . . . now many of our pests in this country are introduced from outside. SM: Oh, I see. HC: From Europe, from Asia, and so on. Alright. Now chances are quite likely, some of the pests that came did not have their natural enemies, and so what we’re doing now is go back to their homeland . . . SM: To get their enemies. HC: To find their enemies! SM: That’s interesting. [Chuckles] HC: And so on the other hand there will be less of these kinds of pests from the United States to China. SM: Oh yes, I see. HC: And that [unclear] goes back one step further, is many of our crop varieties—fruits, vegetables—originated from China. SM: Yes, I see. HC: Okay, so when they brought these over, they brought some pests. And yet these pests did not have their natural enemies, so we are sort of completing this cycle. SM: I see. HC: Yes. SM: Well, that’s very interesting. So the Chinese are very interested in biological control rather than chemical. HC: That’s right, that’s right. Yes. SM: I see. That’s your interest, too. HC: That’s right, yes. Yes. SM: Well, it’s certainly very important now. 41

HC: That’s true. That’s true, yes, and more so now with the concerns of environmental quality and so on. SM: Yes. Well that’s . . . HC: In fact, I have some money from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. SM: Oh, I see. HC: Yes, to do exploration in Russia. SM: Oh, really? HC: Yes, and so we’re hoping to be able to do the same as with China. SM: Ah, I see. That’s really pretty exciting to think all this is going on. HC: That’s right. That’s right. So that’s part of the reason that I’m too much involved at this end to say go to China for any extended period. SM: Yes, I see. Yes. You have too much involved with your work. HC: That’s right, here. Yes. Yes. But to say . . . to help China, and I can do a certain amount without going there. SM: It looks like you’ve done quite a bit [chuckles] in arranging the exchanges. HC: Yes. In doing certain things, yes. SM: I see. Well, I don’t want to take your whole day. [Chuckles] But this has been really very interesting. HC: Yes. But it’s been very interesting. Right. SM: And if we could look at that history that Hodson wrote, that would be really interesting, too. HC: Oh yes, that’s right. I’ll check on that and get us a copy of this. SM: Thank you very much for help on this tape. HC: If you like, you can contact Sally Flax and Joe. Yes. SM: Yes. Is that Mestenhauser . . .? 42

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